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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 4:35 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Hi, nice to meet you. I'm in the middle. I see the forest and the trees. I have my qualms but I do understand that:
a) vaccinating is me making a choice for my child. not vaccinating is me making a choice for my child AND YOUR CHILD, and everyone who is immunocompromised in some way or otherwise cannot receive the vaccine,
b) if I do not vaccinate and too many others do the same then my children will certainly contract the diseases, which is far worse, since they all have much higher morbidity and mortality rates
than the vaccines,
c) the chance of a negative effect from the vaccine is infinitely lower than the chance of complications from the disease.

Therefore, I vax. And do not believe you have the right to choose otherwise, ethically or morally, unless you are willing to quarantine your child at the first sign of illness, every. single. time.

But, I see the forest and the trees and do not love vaccinations at all.

PS the medical professionals are not perfect.
PPS anyone selling you natural medicine is making most or all of their profit off you buying their talk and their products - they are no better than Big Pharma, and in many ways even worse, since no one in Big Pharma is earning their entire livelihood off vaccines.

Hi! I've never met anyone who can speak about both the forest and the trees. Except my pediatrician! And I dont expect him to give me all his time. Smile
Maybe we need to start a new forest. Smile

I hear your opinion. And that is probably the right thing for you and your family based on your lifestyle and circumstances.

Here is mine:
A) I don't know anyone immunocompromised. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I do and those people keep it a secret. But we don't go out a lot. To school and back home. We are simple that way. Happy and busy in our little bubble. Nobody in my kids' schools needs that safety net. The schools also don't ban peanuts, etc., because no one there has a massive allergy.
I have always kept my children home at any sign of illness. I always wait a full day of 100% recovered before I send back to school.
Like I wrote above, it is despicable and highly inconsiderate to spread disease.

That said, I dont believe that unvaccinated healthy children can spread disease. Perhaps rarely if a virus present differently, but generally, healthy children are healthy, vaxed or unvaxed. And sick children spread disease, vaxed or unvaxed.
Yes, for some viruses the chance of spreading is less in vaxed children. And sometimes it's more, if the symptoms are masked because of the vaccine which doesn't prevent spread, such as the pertussis vaccine.
I have never had to pick up a child from school who got sick in the middle of the day. Theoretically yes it can happen, but to us it never has.
To me there is no such thing as tylenoling a child in order to send to school. While I have tylenol and motrin in the house for emergencies, I barely use it bah- it usually expires and then I toss it and buy a new one.
BH for healthy children. I generally do not use any kind of OTC meds. It's just not in our mentality. If it's a must, I'm ready to do it, but I've never had to. It doesn't exist in our lifestyle.

B) Part of my seeing the entire forest, from what I've read (and I've read a lot on both sides, following this issue for over a decade), is that I take herd immunity with a little grain of salt. Because they are always harping on the children. As if once you turn 18 you are contagion-free for life. Most adults out there have no idea of their immunity status of the viruses and diseases kids are blamed for. Like we've seen from this entire measles outbreak, adults can and do spread measles, mumps, pertussis, even if they're vaccinated.
Secondly, the amount of people who come into this country visiting or to stay without anyone checking on their immunity status. It used to be very strict at the borders, you had to show proof of vaccines. Not anymore.
It seems to me, if they really cared about herd immunity, they'd be stricter about that.
So I see the herd immunity concept more as a false sense of security.

C) There is really no way to know how a vaccine will react within a person. Certain genetic factors which we dont test for can chv mess up a person majorly with the vaccine as a trigger. Also, now the CDC set a new rule that siblings of a person with autoimmune disease shouldn't get the MMR. What happened to all those people before this new announcement? And I wish they would decide if eczema qualifies as autoimmune disease- they've been on the fence for that way too long. Add to this that the DoH in NY will not accept the CDCs new ruling as a reason for a medical exemption for school. So this is really all very confusing. And the research is ongoing, science is never a finished conclusion.
So when there is a risk, even a minimal one, there must be a choice.
Forcing injections on the masses- that belongs in a dictatorship. Not in the America I grew up in.

PS- I dont expect perfection but I do expect basic common sense which I'm not seeing.
I happen to love my pediatrician and he mostly agrees with me. He still wishes I had trusted him all these years enough to let him vax my kids. My kids are vaxed now as per NY dictatorship. Besides my baby who stays home with me. BH my kids have all taken the shots very well. Even though they were given super close together, which has no scientific backing. I am grateful they had many years of strong good health and they are all sturdy enough to receive shots with zero reactions. They didnt care or complain about getting shots and there was no drama. I have never brainwashed them against shots, knowing that one day it will be up to them and their spouses to make the decision for themselves.

PPS- I posted upthread about different conflicts of interest that bothers me. If you've watched the video of Dr Plotkin's deposition, you know that he and those like him are getting millions!!!! each year from the drug companies to promote vaccines.
I doubt any alternative dr compares to that.
I had two successful interactions with alternative medicine in the past 15 years, like I said. Sum total: $350 and it was well worth it. The first time I went was to avoid tonsil/adenoids surgery on my 3 yr old and after one quick visit, he was able to breathe properly for the first time in 2.5 years, and the surgery wasnt necessary anymore.

I am open to hearing what you think about what I wrote, where you agree or disagree.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 5:00 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
You just summed up the root of what is wrong with anti-vaxxers.
They think they know more than someone who learned 7 years in medical school, they think they are smarter than people who have to be top of the top just in order to be accepted - and worst (best?) of all, they think Google is a reliable source. Yes Google can offer you good stuff but it can also offer you complete trash and in order to know what's what you need some kind of knowledge.

Please dont generalize. Yes there are many ignorant antivaxers. It actually turned me off to see it.
And there are many ignorant provaxers. I cant even tell you how hard it was not to laugh when I heard a mother of many children in the dr's office, so proud that she is giving her kids the flu shot so that her kids won't get the flu and especially worrisome, if the flu magically turns into measles because it turns into pneumonia sometimes so why not measles.
I didnt have the heart to tell her that the flu shot has dismal rates of effectiveness. Or to squash her enthusiasm about avoiding measles or any other disease she thinks flu can magically turn into. I guess it's pretty good she knew about pneumonia as a secondary infection.


There are antivaxers who dont do any research and only rely on their gut instinct and plenty of rumors that shots arent good for their kids.
And there are antivaxers that rely on antivax doctors for research and medical guidance. There are plenty of doctors, professors, etc., that can read papers, examine research, and intelligently come to a different conclusion than one embedded in the drug companies' pockets.
It is pretty hard to pit dr against dr, when both have gone to med school, both have extensive experience in pediatrics, heads of emergency rooms, etc., but they are on polar opposite sides when it comes to vaccines. And why the antivax one gets majorly threatened by the top, that just makes you wonder what they're trying to hide up there at the CDC.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 5:23 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Hi! I've never met anyone who can speak about both the forest and the trees. Except my pediatrician! And I dont expect him to give me all his time. Smile
Maybe we need to start a new forest. Smile

I hear your opinion. And that is probably the right thing for you and your family based on your lifestyle and circumstances.

Here is mine:
A) I don't know anyone immunocompromised. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I do and those people keep it a secret. But we don't go out a lot. To school and back home. We are simple that way. Happy and busy in our little bubble. Nobody in my kids' schools needs that safety net. The schools also don't ban peanuts, etc., because no one there has a massive allergy.
I have always kept my children home at any sign of illness. I always wait a full day of 100% recovered before I send back to school.
Like I wrote above, it is despicable and highly inconsiderate to spread disease.

That said, I dont believe that unvaccinated healthy children can spread disease. Perhaps rarely if a virus present differently, but generally, healthy children are healthy, vaxed or unvaxed. And sick children spread disease, vaxed or unvaxed.
Yes, for some viruses the chance of spreading is less in vaxed children. And sometimes it's more, if the symptoms are masked because of the vaccine which doesn't prevent spread, such as the pertussis vaccine.
I have never had to pick up a child from school who got sick in the middle of the day. Theoretically yes it can happen, but to us it never has.
To me there is no such thing as tylenoling a child in order to send to school. While I have tylenol and motrin in the house for emergencies, I barely use it bah- it usually expires and then I toss it and buy a new one.
BH for healthy children. I generally do not use any kind of OTC meds. It's just not in our mentality. If it's a must, I'm ready to do it, but I've never had to. It doesn't exist in our lifestyle.

B) Part of my seeing the entire forest, from what I've read (and I've read a lot on both sides, following this issue for over a decade), is that I take herd immunity with a little grain of salt. Because they are always harping on the children. As if once you turn 18 you are contagion-free for life. Most adults out there have no idea of their immunity status of the viruses and diseases kids are blamed for. Like we've seen from this entire measles outbreak, adults can and do spread measles, mumps, pertussis, even if they're vaccinated.
Secondly, the amount of people who come into this country visiting or to stay without anyone checking on their immunity status. It used to be very strict at the borders, you had to show proof of vaccines. Not anymore.
It seems to me, if they really cared about herd immunity, they'd be stricter about that.
So I see the herd immunity concept more as a false sense of security.

C) There is really no way to know how a vaccine will react within a person. Certain genetic factors which we dont test for can chv mess up a person majorly with the vaccine as a trigger. Also, now the CDC set a new rule that siblings of a person with autoimmune disease shouldn't get the MMR. What happened to all those people before this new announcement? And I wish they would decide if eczema qualifies as autoimmune disease- they've been on the fence for that way too long. Add to this that the DoH in NY will not accept the CDCs new ruling as a reason for a medical exemption for school. So this is really all very confusing. And the research is ongoing, science is never a finished conclusion.
So when there is a risk, even a minimal one, there must be a choice.
Forcing injections on the masses- that belongs in a dictatorship. Not in the America I grew up in.

PS- I dont expect perfection but I do expect basic common sense which I'm not seeing.
I happen to love my pediatrician and he mostly agrees with me. He still wishes I had trusted him all these years enough to let him vax my kids. My kids are vaxed now as per NY dictatorship. Besides my baby who stays home with me. BH my kids have all taken the shots very well. Even though they were given super close together, which has no scientific backing. I am grateful they had many years of strong good health and they are all sturdy enough to receive shots with zero reactions. They didnt care or complain about getting shots and there was no drama. I have never brainwashed them against shots, knowing that one day it will be up to them and their spouses to make the decision for themselves.

PPS- I posted upthread about different conflicts of interest that bothers me. If you've watched the video of Dr Plotkin's deposition, you know that he and those like him are getting millions!!!! each year from the drug companies to promote vaccines.
I doubt any alternative dr compares to that.
I had two successful interactions with alternative medicine in the past 15 years, like I said. Sum total: $350 and it was well worth it. The first time I went was to avoid tonsil/adenoids surgery on my 3 yr old and after one quick visit, he was able to breathe properly for the first time in 2.5 years, and the surgery wasnt necessary anymore.

I am open to hearing what you think about what I wrote, where you agree or disagree.

Hi. Smile

So I think you should find a time to pick your pediatrician's brain. My pediatrician is great, she is pro-vax but she is totally comfortable suggesting natural remedies where applicable and prefers them to conventional medicine when there is a real option/ a question of whether conventional medicine is truly necessary at the moment. She's also a "wait and see" person as long as she doesn't see any danger.

A) Most people don't announce it. You probably do have at least one immunocompromised acquaintance, but aren't aware of it. We lead a similar lifestyle, but, remember, even a simple trip to the supermarket, shoe store, or library can be lethal for these people - I'm sure you've taken your children to both those places. Same for those in your kids' schools. Especially when there is stigma and a lack of understanding, people don't usually talk about this. And about the peanut allergy, no, it could be that there's a family who homeschools because the school refuses to become peanut-free for their child.

Healthy children are healthy, but what happens when a healthy child starts coming down with a fever in the middle of the day? Okay, you kept him home the next day, but for those four hours, that unvaxxed child with a fever could have already infected another child/ren. And some children don't tell when they have a low fever and feel awful, because their will to keep playing is stronger and they have a high pain threshold. That doesn't make them any less contagious. You may have never had to pick up a child in the middle of the day - that doesn't mean it won't happen to you in the future. It's like saying that where you live there have been no measles cases. Great, cool, none have been announced - doesn't mean that tomorrow there won't be a warning that one was diagnosed.

No - the chance of spreading disease for vaccine-preventable illnesses is always much lower in vaxxed children. The pertussis vaccine is not 100%, all doctors admit that, but it certainly does not "mask" symptoms.

I think if all parents kept their sick kids and sick selves home there'd be a lot less illness. Being that so many parents are irresponsible, we need to protect the most vulnerable.

I also don't usually use OTC medications.

B) I agree that adults need to check their immunity status and that there needs to be a focus not just on children but on everyone. However if we vaccinate all children for, say, measles, then most adults will still be immune later. We know this is not true for certain things but for others it is true. Yes there needs to be more awareness for adults. No, that doesn't mean it's okay to dismiss the importance of making sure children are protected. (For instance, if you vaccinate a pregnant woman against pertussis to protect her and her baby, you should also be checking if Dad is vaccinated against pertussis. Ignoring him is stupid and puts the child at risk.)

The thing with your claim that "they spread measles even if they're vaccinated" is that many of those "vaccinated" individuals received prior versions of the vaccine which we know today (and knew decades ago) were not effective. So while they think they were vaccinated, medically speaking they were not. Thus the claim that "people vaccinated with the MMR also get sick with measles" is not really true. True, 3 out of every 100 don't show antibodies, maybe they don't have any and maybe we don't recognize them, but nearly every adult who was "vaccinated" and contracted measles received the single - ineffective - measles vaccine, not the MMR. That vaccine had like a 50% success rate.

Regarding those who come into the country. Yes I agree this is a problem. It needs to be fixed. If there was 96% vaccination rates nothing would spread. But we got lax and now we're paying for it. HOWEVER, that isn't in doctors' control. It's something you need to discuss with security, high-ups, the people in charge of the borders.

As of today I don't think anyone feels that there is enough herd immunity to offer a false sense of security.

C) That's true. We can't control for that. Perhaps with more research we could. And we need to be putting money into that research.

(If the anti-vax movement cared about health, they'd be funding research on identifying contraindications for vaccines instead of on propaganda which puts lives at risk. Shame, because those billions would really be useful in funding this under-researched area. And the research might also lead to the development of alternative vaccines for those at-risk populations - and even if those alternative vaccines are only 50% successful, that's still better than nothing. Plus if we get herd immunity back up and start blocking borders to unvaxxed individuals, we'll have a safe space to offer exemptions and possibly-ineffective-but-not-contraindicated alternatives for a decade or so, until we can perfect them.)

But as we offer exemptions we need to remember that those people receiving the exemptions are much more likely to experience complications from the disease if herd immunity drops too low to protect them.

Thing is, if you are fighting for existence you can't concentrate on perfecting things. It's like as long as Israel has to worry about rocket attacks, Israel can't help Gazans rehabilitate themselves. So same here - if DoH has to spend its funds fighting anti-vax propaganda, pushing laws, offering free vaccines to stem outbreaks, fighting to prevent people from buying into the de-legitimizing campaign - then DoH, doctors, researchers, etc. can't focus on identifying contraindications and possible causes or solutions. If we didn't need to pour money into research proving Wakefield wrong, we could pour money into research on identifying issues. But as of right now any research to that effect will be lapped up and abused by the anti-vax movement, and if it is kept secret that will be uncovered and abused as well. So not only is there no money, not only is there fear of lawsuits, not only is there not enough manpower or time to put into that research right now due to the crisis caused, there is also a "why the heck bother" idea because "whatever you say and do can and will be used against you." Again, that's a shame. But it can be fixed, research can be done - if we stop the propaganda.

I personally would be a lot less apprehensive if we had more research on contraindications and how to handle them. As is, it seems that if you don't vaccinate there will be an outbreak (because too many others are not vaccinating). And while it's fine not to vaccinate when there's no outbreak, the moment there's an outbreak and you want to vax, a) you won't have time to give all the doses, b) there may not be enough vaccines to go around anymore and you may end up not being able to give them. So, better (and safer) to vax pre-emptively than in response to a vaccine (or legislation).

I'm not going to discuss America per se, because I don't live in America. But in general I do think that if things get out of hand (where I live they most definitely have) then the government does need to step in to protect the vulnerable, as well as the will of the majority. (Meaning, majority chooses to vax, I.e. chooses not to want their children to be exposed to these diseases - minority has no right to impose their will on the majority and put the majority's newborns and immunocompromised at risk, therefore if there is an outbreak minority must be made to vax. Where I live 95% of the public vaxxes from their own free will. That means that during the measles outbreak, 5% of the public took free choice regarding movement, health, and life, away from 95% of the public. In no democracy is that acceptable.)

PS - Correct. I have not seen any common sense. I commend you for not brainwashing your children.

PPS - There are those receiving millions to bash vaccines as well. The original research connecting MMR to autism was funded by the parents of autistic children who paid Dr. Wakefield to publish a research proving that there was a connection, so that they could receive compensation. Talk about conflict of interest! And don't kid yourself, anti-vax organizations are receiving hefty donations as well.

That's very cool. I've been looking for a responsible, reliable, alternative practitioner for a while but haven't yet found one that's not a bluff.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 6:00 am
Thousands of scientists and decades of research = not a reliable source, they probably all work for Big Pharma.

Random Kenyan conspiracy theorist who dislikes the current government = solid source with no reason to lie.

Hahaha OK. You do you, OP.

But seriously, what's with the belief that Big Pharma money is uniquely corrupting? Do you not pay for water, electricity, clothing, education, even religious items, the same as the rest of us? Why is it that paying for medicine, specifically, brings on this fear that an evil cabal of evil-doers is trying to trick you into injecting yourself with something you don't need?
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 6:03 am
Ironically, if a random person wanted to fool other people and take their money, it would make way more sense to sell unproven "cures" that require zero R&D, and to sell them to people who don't care about FDA approval.

IOW - it would make way more sense to sell homeopathic products.

Just saying.
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rymy




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 6:32 am
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
Thank you
Vaccines aren't tested against a true placebo, rather against other vaccines with similar components. Adverse events are missed 90-99 percent of the time- according to Harvard medical school.
Please stop denying that there are issues and and accusing parents.
Do you hear these arguements- either take all pharmaceuticals or none, you didn't go to med school- how about Harvard med school?
Let's stop all the condescending rhetoric and keep it civil.


First time commenting on this forum but couldn't resist... I did go to HMS! Study Nerd

You misinterpreted the Harvard study-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/v...../amp/

As an aside, I wonder why the anti-vax commenters (who are so certain that they're correct) generally post anonymously???
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 7:49 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I doubt any alternative dr compares to that.
I had two successful interactions with alternative medicine in the past 15 years, like I said. Sum total: $350 and it was well worth it. The first time I went was to avoid tonsil/adenoids surgery on my 3 yr old and after one quick visit, he was able to breathe properly for the first time in 2.5 years, and the surgery wasnt necessary anymore.


Off topic- I'm looking for someone like that for my son. Can u tell me what type work u did?
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 8:24 am
The chief anti-vaxer in Samoa has been arrested and rescue workers going house to house are sometimes getting there too late to save the children. Some of them died because of lack of maternal immunity but many were past the age for that to have made a difference.
Now some populations are more vulnerable to some diseases than other populations are. Many vaccines that are given in other countries are only available in the US for those who are traveling to those countries. A child in Darien CT, has a better chance of surviving measles than a poor child on a Native American reservation does.
Logically, we would assess risk before administering anything but we can't always say that we see a difference between the slums of Harlem and the mansions of Scarsdale. We also don't take well to people on social media saying that they refuse to be participants in public health and if it's your child or mine, guess who I will pick.
As far as alternative medicine goes, Facebook tries to stop people from selling dangerous, unproven, and expensive alternative treatment but they get in through the back door. Insurance companies recognize some such as chiropractic to be of some value and may reimburse some of the cost.
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amother




Chocolate
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 8:31 am
[quote="rymy"]First time commenting on this forum but couldn't resist... I did go to HMS! Study Nerd

You misinterpreted the Harvard study-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/v...../amp/

As an aside, I wonder why the anti-vax commenters (who are so certain that they're correct) generally post anonymously???[/quote

u went to Harvard Med School and your source is vaxopedia?
The other arguement is that we post anonymously
Can you explain why the adverse event reporting system has not been automated?
It's people like you who should be advocating for transparency. Adverse events are seriously under reported.
You should be advocating for a vaxxed versus unvaxxes study. The data is already there. We need our medical prfessionals to stand up and stop being part of the denial.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 9:04 am
eschaya wrote:
Um, no. No you don't. You fool yourself into thinking so. Of course you're not ashamed to claim such. You are saying that you think you are smarter than those who had the IQ, passion and drive to make it through medical school and residency, that you intuitively understand more than those who have spend thousands upon thousands of hours learning and managing patients... and all by the grace of your eminent mind under the thoughtful tutelage of Dr. Google.
I work in healthcare, and gotta love those family members who "know" more than the doctors/providers managing the care. Just yesterday I had a patient who stated that he drinks sugar-free crystal light instead of taking his gout medication because he read that it works even better. He kept urging me to research it. I'm sure he found that "article" somewhere but I have yet to find it. I do wish he would have taken his allopurinol though; it would have exerted a protective effect against the tumor lysis syndrome (an oncologic emergency) that he was suffering from. I had a family member refuse to allow her husband a blood transfusion because she read online that the blood we use is from monkeys. She must have read something about rh factor and in her "research" touched upon something related to rhesus monkeys. She is right to have noticed that; the rhesus protein is named for the rhesus monkey that also carries the protein. She is wrong that the blood comes from monkeys. Yet her "research" had her so convinced that the doctors are wrong,and she refused to allow him a necessary transfusion.
Believe me, I've spoken to many anti-vaxxers, most of whom claim medical expertise as you do. They all think they live in Lake Wobegun, where everyone is smarter than average. Not that this is statistical evidence or anything, but so far all these geniuses seem to be of average intelligence, occasionally with deficits in reading comprehension (not all though, there was one lovely antivax woman I spoke with who only looked at real evidence and actually understood much of the science. Unfortunately she tended to get lost in the weeds and would harp on the few legitimate issues that do exist with vaccines, and because of the trees she could not see the forest).



My neighbor who’s an anti vaxxer kept telling me I read this and that and when I went to search google for the articles they were nowhere to be found they are so full of it. My neighbor used to be a sweet lady then she became and angry nervous mom who always has kids crying there noses are running. She’s busy fighting the world yet she doesn’t realize most are not agreeing with her.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 9:12 am
1. In natural items they don’t need to report 5% of the ingredients which is harmful to some people so actually as a natural u don’t either know what your taking.
2. Lots of doctors in all medical fields sometimes encourage some natural stuff to help out with symptoms or with the issue itself. But they will recommend something that was true and tested. And that is not mixed. Anti vaxxers have gone to far with there agenda and they got nowhere, some gave up some are still fighting and when there kids are resentful of them they will ask why.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 9:21 am
NBC news reported an hour ago, that anti-vaxers are no longer sticking to peaceful protests and logical negotiations. They have now resorted to violence, heckling, stalking, and bullying, both in person and online. They are losing both ground and the respect from the public. Nobody cares about the rights and freedoms of such people.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 9:36 am
Hi! OP back here. I'm glad my links got the conversation started, but we MUST keep this civil or else the thread will get locked, as others have in the past.

I have a lot to respond to other posts, but this one hasn't been addressed yet and there's a lot to unpack here:

amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Hi. Smile

So I think you should find a time to pick your pediatrician's brain. My pediatrician is great, she is pro-vax but she is totally comfortable suggesting natural remedies where applicable and prefers them to conventional medicine when there is a real option/ a question of whether conventional medicine is truly necessary at the moment. She's also a "wait and see" person as long as she doesn't see any danger.

A) Most people don't announce it. You probably do have at least one immunocompromised acquaintance, but aren't aware of it. We lead a similar lifestyle, but, remember, even a simple trip to the supermarket, shoe store, or library can be lethal for these people - I'm sure you've taken your children to both those places. Same for those in your kids' schools. Especially when there is stigma and a lack of understanding, people don't usually talk about this. And about the peanut allergy, no, it could be that there's a family who homeschools because the school refuses to become peanut-free for their child.

Healthy children are healthy, but what happens when a healthy child starts coming down with a fever in the middle of the day? Okay, you kept him home the next day, but for those four hours, that unvaxxed child with a fever could have already infected another child/ren. And some children don't tell when they have a low fever and feel awful, because their will to keep playing is stronger and they have a high pain threshold. That doesn't make them any less contagious. You may have never had to pick up a child in the middle of the day - that doesn't mean it won't happen to you in the future. It's like saying that where you live there have been no measles cases. Great, cool, none have been announced - doesn't mean that tomorrow there won't be a warning that one was diagnosed.

No - the chance of spreading disease for vaccine-preventable illnesses is always much lower in vaxxed children. The pertussis vaccine is not 100%, all doctors admit that, but it certainly does not "mask" symptoms.

I think if all parents kept their sick kids and sick selves home there'd be a lot less illness. Being that so many parents are irresponsible, we need to protect the most vulnerable.

I also don't usually use OTC medications.

To the bolded, see what you did there? A sick child is sick and possibly contagious, regardless of vaccine status. You are making an unscientific assumption that an unvaxxed child who is sick is somehow more contagious than a vaxxed child who is sick.

I believe that the fact that she (and I) never had to pick up a sick unvaxxed child in middle of the day is not coincidental. If I see a kid is not 100% ok, even without fever, they stay home.

The pertussis vaccine absolutely does mask symptoms. (same with diptheria) People who are vaccinated with pertussis can still be colonized with the pertussis bacteria and, though the vaccine protects them from illness, they are still asymptomatic carriers and can place immunocompromised people at risk.


amother [ Puce ] wrote:

B) I agree that adults need to check their immunity status and that there needs to be a focus not just on children but on everyone. However if we vaccinate all children for, say, measles, then most adults will still be immune later. We know this is not true for certain things but for others it is true. Yes there needs to be more awareness for adults. No, that doesn't mean it's okay to dismiss the importance of making sure children are protected. (For instance, if you vaccinate a pregnant woman against pertussis to protect her and her baby, you should also be checking if Dad is vaccinated against pertussis. Ignoring him is stupid and puts the child at risk.)

The thing with your claim that "they spread measles even if they're vaccinated" is that many of those "vaccinated" individuals received prior versions of the vaccine which we know today (and knew decades ago) were not effective. So while they think they were vaccinated, medically speaking they were not. Thus the claim that "people vaccinated with the MMR also get sick with measles" is not really true. True, 3 out of every 100 don't show antibodies, maybe they don't have any and maybe we don't recognize them, but nearly every adult who was "vaccinated" and contracted measles received the single - ineffective - measles vaccine, not the MMR. That vaccine had like a 50% success rate.

Regarding those who come into the country. Yes I agree this is a problem. It needs to be fixed. If there was 96% vaccination rates nothing would spread. But we got lax and now we're paying for it. HOWEVER, that isn't in doctors' control. It's something you need to discuss with security, high-ups, the people in charge of the borders.

As of today I don't think anyone feels that there is enough herd immunity to offer a false sense of security.

Do you know that when the vaccine originally came out the projected percentage of vaccination needed for herd immunity was way lower than 96%? That percentage kept increasing with every outbreak, because herd immunity is proving to be not a simple matter of x% vaccinated = herd immunity. It's difficult to acknowledge that the vaccine is not as effective as originally intended in order to eradicate measles. The fact is that outbreaks will continue to happen due to imported cases, primary and secondary vaccine failure. As long as we keep blaming anti-vaxxers for outbreaks, and moving the goalpost with the percentage needed for eradication, the other factors will not be addressed.

I will hand you that the measles vaccine in particular is one of the more effective vaccines to protect the individual person.

Doctors aren't in control of borders, but government is, and government is also mandating vaccines no exceptions. So I agree with her. If we're concerned about public health, there are many other places to work on before we force everyone on the exact same schedule regardless of medical history.

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

C) That's true. We can't control for that. Perhaps with more research we could. And we need to be putting money into that research.

(If the anti-vax movement cared about health, they'd be funding research on identifying contraindications for vaccines instead of on propaganda which puts lives at risk. Shame, because those billions would really be useful in funding this under-researched area. And the research might also lead to the development of alternative vaccines for those at-risk populations - and even if those alternative vaccines are only 50% successful, that's still better than nothing. Plus if we get herd immunity back up and start blocking borders to unvaxxed individuals, we'll have a safe space to offer exemptions and possibly-ineffective-but-not-contraindicated alternatives for a decade or so, until we can perfect them.)

But as we offer exemptions we need to remember that those people receiving the exemptions are much more likely to experience complications from the disease if herd immunity drops too low to protect them.

Thing is, if you are fighting for existence you can't concentrate on perfecting things. It's like as long as Israel has to worry about rocket attacks, Israel can't help Gazans rehabilitate themselves. So same here - if DoH has to spend its funds fighting anti-vax propaganda, pushing laws, offering free vaccines to stem outbreaks, fighting to prevent people from buying into the de-legitimizing campaign - then DoH, doctors, researchers, etc. can't focus on identifying contraindications and possible causes or solutions. If we didn't need to pour money into research proving Wakefield wrong, we could pour money into research on identifying issues. But as of right now any research to that effect will be lapped up and abused by the anti-vax movement, and if it is kept secret that will be uncovered and abused as well. So not only is there no money, not only is there fear of lawsuits, not only is there not enough manpower or time to put into that research right now due to the crisis caused, there is also a "why the heck bother" idea because "whatever you say and do can and will be used against you." Again, that's a shame. But it can be fixed, research can be done - if we stop the propaganda.

I personally would be a lot less apprehensive if we had more research on contraindications and how to handle them. As is, it seems that if you don't vaccinate there will be an outbreak (because too many others are not vaccinating). And while it's fine not to vaccinate when there's no outbreak, the moment there's an outbreak and you want to vax, a) you won't have time to give all the doses, b) there may not be enough vaccines to go around anymore and you may end up not being able to give them. So, better (and safer) to vax pre-emptively than in response to a vaccine (or legislation).

I'm not going to discuss America per se, because I don't live in America. But in general I do think that if things get out of hand (where I live they most definitely have) then the government does need to step in to protect the vulnerable, as well as the will of the majority. (Meaning, majority chooses to vax, I.e. chooses not to want their children to be exposed to these diseases - minority has no right to impose their will on the majority and put the majority's newborns and immunocompromised at risk, therefore if there is an outbreak minority must be made to vax. Where I live 95% of the public vaxxes from their own free will. That means that during the measles outbreak, 5% of the public took free choice regarding movement, health, and life, away from 95% of the public. In no democracy is that acceptable.)

The vaccine mandates created this black and white issue of vaccination. I know plenty people who would have given an MMR earlier in the game if not for fear of losing their religious exemption. I also know many people who, given the choice, would vaccinate for some diseases, some doses, but will not concede to the full packed mandated schedule. By creating a system of either you are in full compliance of the law, or you have an exemption to all vaccines, the government encouraged black and white, all or nothing, positions on this issue. If people's concerns with adverse reactions would be taken seriously and if certain autoimmune conditions, such as eczema and IBD, would be seen by the government as valid contraindications for vaccines (which is definitely the case for individual doctors of those patients, but somehow hasn't made its way into "policy"), we'd be seeing way more compliance.

Force is not the correct answer for a democracy.

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

PS - Correct. I have not seen any common sense. I commend you for not brainwashing your children.

PPS - There are those receiving millions to bash vaccines as well. The original research connecting MMR to autism was funded by the parents of autistic children who paid Dr. Wakefield to publish a research proving that there was a connection, so that they could receive compensation. Talk about conflict of interest! And don't kid yourself, anti-vax organizations are receiving hefty donations as well.

That's very cool. I've been looking for a responsible, reliable, alternative practitioner for a while but haven't yet found one that's not a bluff.

As zealous as I am here on imamother, IRL I remain mostly silent. My children know I don't like giving shots (who does?) but no more than that.

If you want to look at the money, take a look where the millions are. See the bigger picture, not one individual pro or anti vaxxer. Overall there's a reason Big Pharma got its name. They are the number one lobby group on capital hill. That's way too powerful for a single entity and corruption is not far behind. Let's not deny that they are raking in their profits.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 10:26 am
Unfortunately we find corruption everywhere and in just about everything. The bigger the entity, the more the corruption. I agree that there is plenty of corruption in big pharma but I am unwilling or unable to treat my ailments by other means. This is true of everything that we buy and do. We don't know the background story of just about anything.
Until insurance companies are willing to take chances on alternative medicine, many people have no way to pay for it and insurance companies reward doctors for vaccinating because they can vaccinate the whole town for the cost of one hospitalization for a VPD.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:08 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Hi. Smile

So I think you should find a time to pick your pediatrician's brain. My pediatrician is great, she is pro-vax but she is totally comfortable suggesting natural remedies where applicable and prefers them to conventional medicine when there is a real option/ a question of whether conventional medicine is truly necessary at the moment. She's also a "wait and see" person as long as she doesn't see any danger.

A) Most people don't announce it. You probably do have at least one immunocompromised acquaintance, but aren't aware of it. We lead a similar lifestyle, but, remember, even a simple trip to the supermarket, shoe store, or library can be lethal for these people - I'm sure you've taken your children to both those places. Same for those in your kids' schools. Especially when there is stigma and a lack of understanding, people don't usually talk about this. And about the peanut allergy, no, it could be that there's a family who homeschools because the school refuses to become peanut-free for their child.

Healthy children are healthy, but what happens when a healthy child starts coming down with a fever in the middle of the day? Okay, you kept him home the next day, but for those four hours, that unvaxxed child with a fever could have already infected another child/ren. And some children don't tell when they have a low fever and feel awful, because their will to keep playing is stronger and they have a high pain threshold. That doesn't make them any less contagious. You may have never had to pick up a child in the middle of the day - that doesn't mean it won't happen to you in the future. It's like saying that where you live there have been no measles cases. Great, cool, none have been announced - doesn't mean that tomorrow there won't be a warning that one was diagnosed.

No - the chance of spreading disease for vaccine-preventable illnesses is always much lower in vaxxed children. The pertussis vaccine is not 100%, all doctors admit that, but it certainly does not "mask" symptoms.

I think if all parents kept their sick kids and sick selves home there'd be a lot less illness. Being that so many parents are irresponsible, we need to protect the most vulnerable.

I also don't usually use OTC medications.

B) I agree that adults need to check their immunity status and that there needs to be a focus not just on children but on everyone. However if we vaccinate all children for, say, measles, then most adults will still be immune later. We know this is not true for certain things but for others it is true. Yes there needs to be more awareness for adults. No, that doesn't mean it's okay to dismiss the importance of making sure children are protected. (For instance, if you vaccinate a pregnant woman against pertussis to protect her and her baby, you should also be checking if Dad is vaccinated against pertussis. Ignoring him is stupid and puts the child at risk.)

The thing with your claim that "they spread measles even if they're vaccinated" is that many of those "vaccinated" individuals received prior versions of the vaccine which we know today (and knew decades ago) were not effective. So while they think they were vaccinated, medically speaking they were not. Thus the claim that "people vaccinated with the MMR also get sick with measles" is not really true. True, 3 out of every 100 don't show antibodies, maybe they don't have any and maybe we don't recognize them, but nearly every adult who was "vaccinated" and contracted measles received the single - ineffective - measles vaccine, not the MMR. That vaccine had like a 50% success rate.

Regarding those who come into the country. Yes I agree this is a problem. It needs to be fixed. If there was 96% vaccination rates nothing would spread. But we got lax and now we're paying for it. HOWEVER, that isn't in doctors' control. It's something you need to discuss with security, high-ups, the people in charge of the borders.

As of today I don't think anyone feels that there is enough herd immunity to offer a false sense of security.

C) That's true. We can't control for that. Perhaps with more research we could. And we need to be putting money into that research.

(If the anti-vax movement cared about health, they'd be funding research on identifying contraindications for vaccines instead of on propaganda which puts lives at risk. Shame, because those billions would really be useful in funding this under-researched area. And the research might also lead to the development of alternative vaccines for those at-risk populations - and even if those alternative vaccines are only 50% successful, that's still better than nothing. Plus if we get herd immunity back up and start blocking borders to unvaxxed individuals, we'll have a safe space to offer exemptions and possibly-ineffective-but-not-contraindicated alternatives for a decade or so, until we can perfect them.)

But as we offer exemptions we need to remember that those people receiving the exemptions are much more likely to experience complications from the disease if herd immunity drops too low to protect them.

Thing is, if you are fighting for existence you can't concentrate on perfecting things. It's like as long as Israel has to worry about rocket attacks, Israel can't help Gazans rehabilitate themselves. So same here - if DoH has to spend its funds fighting anti-vax propaganda, pushing laws, offering free vaccines to stem outbreaks, fighting to prevent people from buying into the de-legitimizing campaign - then DoH, doctors, researchers, etc. can't focus on identifying contraindications and possible causes or solutions. If we didn't need to pour money into research proving Wakefield wrong, we could pour money into research on identifying issues. But as of right now any research to that effect will be lapped up and abused by the anti-vax movement, and if it is kept secret that will be uncovered and abused as well. So not only is there no money, not only is there fear of lawsuits, not only is there not enough manpower or time to put into that research right now due to the crisis caused, there is also a "why the heck bother" idea because "whatever you say and do can and will be used against you." Again, that's a shame. But it can be fixed, research can be done - if we stop the propaganda.

I personally would be a lot less apprehensive if we had more research on contraindications and how to handle them. As is, it seems that if you don't vaccinate there will be an outbreak (because too many others are not vaccinating). And while it's fine not to vaccinate when there's no outbreak, the moment there's an outbreak and you want to vax, a) you won't have time to give all the doses, b) there may not be enough vaccines to go around anymore and you may end up not being able to give them. So, better (and safer) to vax pre-emptively than in response to a vaccine (or legislation).

I'm not going to discuss America per se, because I don't live in America. But in general I do think that if things get out of hand (where I live they most definitely have) then the government does need to step in to protect the vulnerable, as well as the will of the majority. (Meaning, majority chooses to vax, I.e. chooses not to want their children to be exposed to these diseases - minority has no right to impose their will on the majority and put the majority's newborns and immunocompromised at risk, therefore if there is an outbreak minority must be made to vax. Where I live 95% of the public vaxxes from their own free will. That means that during the measles outbreak, 5% of the public took free choice regarding movement, health, and life, away from 95% of the public. In no democracy is that acceptable.)

PS - Correct. I have not seen any common sense. I commend you for not brainwashing your children.

PPS - There are those receiving millions to bash vaccines as well. The original research connecting MMR to autism was funded by the parents of autistic children who paid Dr. Wakefield to publish a research proving that there was a connection, so that they could receive compensation. Talk about conflict of interest! And don't kid yourself, anti-vax organizations are receiving hefty donations as well.

That's very cool. I've been looking for a responsible, reliable, alternative practitioner for a while but haven't yet found one that's not a bluff.


Hi again! It's nice to be able to talk about this and hear different opinions without the usual bashing rhetoric.

I would feel too bad to take up any more of my pediatrician's valuable time. He's been wonderful over the years. And he thinks the DoH here is over the top. But that doesn't help, he too has to do what they say.

So it's a little hard to compare because you say you dont live in the US. It's true that theoretically my child could get sick in the middle of the day, exposing others but in reality it's never happened. This is what's worked for my family all this time.

I actually was more cautious that anyone else I know, when measles came to the area I live in, even when it hadn't yet come to my neighborhood, I took my partially vaccinated kids (I stopped vaxing when they were toddlers) and checked their titres. So that I know what to look out for in each child in case of illness. (They were both immune from the first mmr they had gotten.)

Perhaps the pertussis vaccine is different where you live. But here its known that a vaccinated child gets a lighter case of pertussis., ie. the masking of symptoms. He can feel pretty good and before his illness is diagnosed as pertussis, have been around town spreading it. The pertussis vaccine does not stop transmission. It also is ineffective after about 3-5 years which is why there are constant outbreaks here.

I have heard stories of adults who were vaccinated and contracted the measles in this past outbreak. I dont mean from the older ineffective shot. I know people who checked their titres and were immune from a single mmr and those who did not have immunity from two mmrs. It happened to be people were sending me their lab work info, which was kind of fun actually.

I still think if the gov't was serious about herd immunity theyd be checking people at the border. And be stricter on illegal immigration. I just dont get the Democrats, wanting to allow all these people in unchecked and at the same time forcing the shots on us. The undocumented population is not vaccinated or has no proof of it.

I'm not sure if you quite understand the way it works here as far as supporting research for certain matters. If any research says differently than what the CDC wants it to, it's shredded or called "inconclusive." The medical journals, drug companies, CDC, and doctors are one voice. No one allowed to step out of line. No transparency. The CDC isnt fighting for existence. Parents are fighting to be heard about their child's vaccine injuries! Have you seen that group of doctors that vote in new vaccines? Its laughable. Everyone votes yes. No objections. So easy for them. And how many of these doctors are in on creating either existing vaccines or new ones? Conflict of interest.

I haven't heard that version of the wakefield story but I wouldn't be surprised. Corruption is everywhere. It's not one sided. But who exactly is pouring millions into antivax interests? There is no one as powerful as the drug companies. Check the media's advertising. Check who donates to political campaigns. Etc.

Last thing I want to say is that the main reason I chose not to vax is because the CDC and their mouthpieces could not and would not answer any questions straight. Any question asked, the answer was simply: "vaccines are safe and effective." I have watched hours of debate. That's not very comforting to people who have real questions. I figured they dont know because there hasn't yet been enough research done. Just like they thought thimerosal was safe until it wasn't anymore. Or the DPT vaccine. I am sure someone here will soon come claim that both are still safe. Not in my children, no thank you.
And the amount of conflicts of interest surrounding the drug companies and CDC just seems suspicious. Why would I inject a manufactured product into ourselves when there are no clear answers.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:14 am
Amother OP, thank you for your above post. You say it better than I can.

I also wanted to say that I dont talk about this IRL or online as well. But now I have nothing to lose because my kids are vaccinated. I won't complain but only thank Hashem for His kindnesses that all of them are doing well.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:34 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Off topic- I'm looking for someone like that for my son. Can u tell me what type work u did?

Homeopath. It worked instantly, by the time we got home. That night I couldnt sleep since I had to keep checking on my son. It was the first time that he was actually breathing normally, without it reverberating around our entire apartment! I couldnt believe it. This was 11 years ago. I never had to take him back.
In contrast, my dr offered steroids and we had to buy that machine that turns it into steam (can't remember what it's called at the moment). And when that didn't work, stronger steroids. It got to a point where I had to look out of the box and find a different solution.

My theory is that homeopathy works really well on some people. He must be one of them. He also got this really healthy glow on his face and actually thinking now, it is very very rare for him to get sick bah.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:39 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Homeopath. It worked instantly, by the time we got home. That night I couldnt sleep since I had to keep checking on my son. It was the first time that he was actually breathing normally, without it reverberating around our entire apartment! I couldnt believe it. This was 11 years ago. I never had to take him back.
In contrast, my dr offered steroids and we had to buy that machine that turns it into steam (can't remember what it's called at the moment). And when that didn't work, stronger steroids. It got to a point where I had to look out of the box and find a different solution.

My theory is that homeopathy works really well on some people. He must be one of them. He also got this really healthy glow on his face and actually thinking now, it is very very rare for him to get sick bah.

Which homeopath?
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:54 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Homeopath. It worked instantly, by the time we got home. That night I couldnt sleep since I had to keep checking on my son. It was the first time that he was actually breathing normally, without it reverberating around our entire apartment! I couldnt believe it. This was 11 years ago. I never had to take him back.
In contrast, my dr offered steroids and we had to buy that machine that turns it into steam (can't remember what it's called at the moment). And when that didn't work, stronger steroids. It got to a point where I had to look out of the box and find a different solution.

My theory is that homeopathy works really well on some people. He must be one of them. He also got this really healthy glow on his face and actually thinking now, it is very very rare for him to get sick bah.


The steam machine is called a nebulizer.
We had terrible luck with homeopathy and will no longer go that route.
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amother




Mustard
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:59 am
southernbubby wrote:
The steam machine is called a nebulizer.
We had terrible luck with homeopathy and will no longer go that route.


My father is a naturalist and he almost died because of it and now he’s on 10 medications. He learned his lesson the hardway.
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