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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Dec 06 2019, 11:06 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
My father is a naturalist and he almost died because of it and now he’s on 10 medications. He
learned his lesson the hardway.


I am so sorry. Whereas doctors need malpractice insurance, I don't think that there is any recourse if someone is harmed by an unlicensed health care provider.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 9:43 am
[quote="amother [ Chocolate ]"]
rymy wrote:
First time commenting on this forum but couldn't resist... I did go to HMS! Study Nerd

You misinterpreted the Harvard study-
https://www.google.com/amp/s/v...../amp/

As an aside, I wonder why the anti-vax commenters (who are so certain that they're correct) generally post anonymously???[/quote

u went to Harvard Med School and your source is vaxopedia?
The other arguement is that we post anonymously
Can you explain why the adverse event reporting system has not been automated?
It's people like you who should be advocating for transparency. Adverse events are seriously under reported.
You should be advocating for a vaxxed versus unvaxxes study. The data is already there. We need our medical prfessionals to stand up and stop being part of the denial.

If someone can't even understand the link she gave, why would anyone link them to lengthy research articles?
Her source is not vaxopedia. That's just what she's linking here, for an easy read that sums up the main points.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 10:21 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
To the bolded, see what you did there? A sick child is sick and possibly contagious, regardless of vaccine status. You are making an unscientific assumption that an unvaxxed child who is sick is somehow more contagious than a vaxxed child who is sick.

believe that the fact that she (and ) never had to pick up a sick unvaxxed child in middle of the day is not coincidental. If see a kid is not 100% ok, even without fever, they stay home.

The pertussis vaccine absolutely does mask symptoms. (same with diptheria) People who are vaccinated with pertussis can still be colonized with the pertussis bacteria and, though the vaccine protects them from illness, they are still asymptomatic carriers and can place immunocompromised people at risk.

Yes, I sure do. I also know that during this measles outbreak, lots of unvaxxed children with fevers were "diagnosed" as "not sick with measles" by their parents, or taken to clinics with suspected measles because the parents did not want to have a home visit, or simply taken around because "we're doing people a favor by exposing them naturally." There's no forgiveness for that.

I also don't ever remember having to pick up a sick child in the middle of a school day B"H. But that doesn't mean that it's not a possible scenario, which in the case of an unvaxxed child presents a significant risk that the illness is not just a cold or flu.

I think you're mixing pertussis with polio. Smile Pertussis doesn't "colonize" and people who contract pertussis are not asymptomatic. Polio, on the other hand, can colonize your gut if you've received the IPV and then you'd be a carrier. If you've had the OPV, that's not possible. But if enough people get the IPV, then the OPV isn't needed. Honestly? If you refuse to give your child the IPV, and your child picks up polio in preschool, the only one responsible for that is you.

Diphtheria can be asymptomatic, true, but that's not because of the vaccine - it's because the disease itself can be asymptomatic.

Quote:
Do you know that when the vaccine originally came out the projected percentage of vaccination needed for herd immunity was way lower than 96%? That percentage kept increasing with every outbreak, because herd immunity is proving to be not a simple matter of x% vaccinated = herd immunity. It's difficult to acknowledge that the vaccine is not as effective as originally intended in order to eradicate measles. The fact is that outbreaks will continue to happen due to imported cases, primary and secondary vaccine failure. As long as we keep blaming anti-vaxxers for outbreaks, and moving the goalpost with the percentage needed for eradication, the other factors will not be addressed.

will hand you that the measles vaccine in particular is one of the more effective vaccines to protect the individual person.

Doctors aren't in control of borders, but government is, and government is also mandating vaccines no exceptions. So agree with her. If we're concerned about public health, there are many other places to work on before we force everyone on the exact same schedule regardless of medical history.

Yes, we originally did not understand what was necessary in order to achieve herd immunity. Just like the first measles vaccine we invented did not really work. You learn new things every day.

The thing is, measles CAN be eradicated the way smallpox was - by reaching a level of herd immunity that basically prevents the spread of the disease. The reason measles hasn't yet been eradicated worldwide is because vaccination rates in Africa are still negligible. And outbreaks still occur at home because pockets of anti-vaxxers allow quick spread of the disease in certain areas.

Doctors aren't in control of borders, so let's stop blaming Big Pharma for everything and start demanding people do their jobs instead of looking at how others do their jobs.out "
Not sure what you mean when you write that "there are many other places to work on." Which ones are you referring to? (Not denying they exist, just wondering which you have in mind.)

Quote:
The vaccine mandates created this black and white issue of vaccination. know plenty people who would have given an MMR earlier in the game if not for fear of losing their religious exemption. also know many people who, given the choice, would vaccinate for some diseases, some doses, but will not concede to the full packed mandated schedule. By creating a system of either you are in full compliance of the law, or you have an exemption to all vaccines, the government encouraged black and white, all or nothing, positions on this issue. If people's concerns with adverse reactions would be taken seriously and if certain autoimmune conditions, such as eczema and IBD, would be seen by the government as valid contraindications for vaccines (which is definitely the case for individual doctors of those patients, but somehow hasn't made its way into "policy"), we'd be seeing way more compliance.

Force is not the correct answer for a democracy.

No. Where I live there is no mandatory vaccination schedule. But there are still outbreaks and the public is darn mad about it, because a full 95% of us nationally vaccinate. Meaning 95% of the country does not want to be dealing with an outbreak or funding hospital stays for anti-vaxxers or having their newborns and immunocompromised put at risk. There is a huge push to force vaccination, not because it is mandatory but because of the unfairness of the 5% making life-and-death choices for the 95% who didn't choose to take that risk.

The black-and-white was caused by the outbreak - by the anti-vaxxers who caused it.

And in the US 2.2% of kindergarteners were exempt in 2017-2018. Meaning the US has over a 97% vax rate nationally. But pockets of anti-vaxxers create pockets of risk.

Allowing the minority to rule the majority is never the answer for a democracy.

Quote:
As zealous as am here on imamother, IRL remain mostly silent. My children know don't like giving shots (who does?) but no more than that.

If you want to look at the money, take a look where the millions are. See the bigger picture, not one individual pro or anti vaxxer. Overall there's a reason Big Pharma got its name. They are the number one lobby group on capital hill. That's way too powerful for a single entity and corruption is not far behind. Let's not deny that they are raking in their profits.

Two anti-vax organizations are behind over half the ads on social media. Are you going to deny the big bucks there? Maybe Big Pharma used to have a monopoly on big bucks, but it doesn't anymore, and claiming so would be incredibly foolish.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 12:57 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Hi again! It's nice to be able to talk about this and hear different opinions without the usual bashing rhetoric.

I would feel too bad to take up any more of my pediatrician's valuable time. He's been wonderful over the years. And he thinks the DoH here is over the top. But that doesn't help, he too has to do what they say.

So it's a little hard to compare because you say you dont live in the US. It's true that theoretically my child could get sick in the middle of the day, exposing others but in reality it's never happened. This is what's worked for my family all this time.

I actually was more cautious that anyone else I know, when measles came to the area I live in, even when it hadn't yet come to my neighborhood, I took my partially vaccinated kids (I stopped vaxing when they were toddlers) and checked their titres. So that I know what to look out for in each child in case of illness. (They were both immune from the first mmr they had gotten.)

Perhaps the pertussis vaccine is different where you live. But here its known that a vaccinated child gets a lighter case of pertussis., ie. the masking of symptoms. He can feel pretty good and before his illness is diagnosed as pertussis, have been around town spreading it. The pertussis vaccine does not stop transmission. It also is ineffective after about 3-5 years which is why there are constant outbreaks here.

I have heard stories of adults who were vaccinated and contracted the measles in this past outbreak. I dont mean from the older ineffective shot. I know people who checked their titres and were immune from a single mmr and those who did not have immunity from two mmrs. It happened to be people were sending me their lab work info, which was kind of fun actually.

I still think if the gov't was serious about herd immunity theyd be checking people at the border. And be stricter on illegal immigration. I just dont get the Democrats, wanting to allow all these people in unchecked and at the same time forcing the shots on us. The undocumented population is not vaccinated or has no proof of it.

I'm not sure if you quite understand the way it works here as far as supporting research for certain matters. If any research says differently than what the CDC wants it to, it's shredded or called "inconclusive." The medical journals, drug companies, CDC, and doctors are one voice. No one allowed to step out of line. No transparency. The CDC isnt fighting for existence. Parents are fighting to be heard about their child's vaccine injuries! Have you seen that group of doctors that vote in new vaccines? Its laughable. Everyone votes yes. No objections. So easy for them. And how many of these doctors are in on creating either existing vaccines or new ones? Conflict of interest.

I haven't heard that version of the wakefield story but I wouldn't be surprised. Corruption is everywhere. It's not one sided. But who exactly is pouring millions into antivax interests? There is no one as powerful as the drug companies. Check the media's advertising. Check who donates to political campaigns. Etc.

Last thing I want to say is that the main reason I chose not to vax is because the CDC and their mouthpieces could not and would not answer any questions straight. Any question asked, the answer was simply: "vaccines are safe and effective." I have watched hours of debate. That's not very comforting to people who have real questions. I figured they dont know because there hasn't yet been enough research done. Just like they thought thimerosal was safe until it wasn't anymore. Or the DPT vaccine. I am sure someone here will soon come claim that both are still safe. Not in my children, no thank you.
And the amount of conflicts of interest surrounding the drug companies and CDC just seems suspicious. Why would I inject a manufactured product into ourselves when there are no clear answers.

Can you offer to pay him to sit with you for an hour or two and answer all your questions? Even if it's an hour this month an hour next month.

I hear you re the sick kids. And I commend you for the precautions. It's so nice to be "speaking" with someone who actually uses common sense.

The pertussis vaccine is not 100%. If you are vaccinated you can still get pertussis. But it's not "masked" - it's just a lighter case. However, pertussis (regardless of vaccination status) has an incubation period of 3-12 days and you can be contagious before symptoms show. Also, you can be sick with pertussis more than once, regardless of vaccination status. So yes you need boosters, but that's because of how your body tags pertussis - not because of the vaccine.

So where I live the vaccinated individuals who contracted measles had all received the single vaccine, not the MMR. But theoretically yes it is possible - after 1 dose, 7 out of every 100 individuals is not immune, after 2 doses, 3 out of every 100 may not be immune. But the thing is that if an individual chooses to vax/ vax their children they are choosing that their child should not contract measles. So no one really has the right to take that choice away from them and choose to expose that child to measles. And that goes also for newborns whose parents want to vax them but need to wait until they're old enough. And what happened here was that a small minority's choice overrode the choice of these parents, in a very serious life-or-death issue. (Over half of the measles victims were under a year old.) Honestly, where I live, there is a community who doesn't vax at all. But they are very careful. They never infect others. The moment a child shows any sign of not feeling well the child is quarantined until the illness is diagnosed. If it is measles they are quarantined for about 3 weeks. And they are experts at diagnosing measles. So they have a few cases a year - maybe 5, 10 - and it never spreads. If all anti-vaxxers were like them, I'd be fine. But the fact is that they're not.

Regarding border checks, I 1000% agree with you. I don't know who got rid of it or when but if the government is serious then vaccination records should be checked before people are allowed into the country. However, that needs to be demanded of the government, not blamed on Big Pharma.

I do understand how it works, but also understand that there are big-bucks organizations nowadays who have nothing to lose, no lawsuits, no research to invest in, relayively few salaries to pay, etc., who are pouring big bucks into the anti-vax agenda, ads, and so on. I'm not saying Big Pharma and CDC are innocent, but I do think we need to acknowledge that there are big bucks on both sides, corruption on both sides, personal interests on both sides. The playing field for that issue is pretty much even. And VAERs? People can blame anything on vaccines, even smothering their baby because they were drunk.

So about the questions. I find a lot of experts are wary of answering questions from "random people," firstly because they are worried that their words will be twisted and taken out of context, or that they are being baited. And secondly they don't see a point in explaining nitty gritty details to someone who can't understand them. But if you explain that you're looking to understand, not to fight, that you are on their side, and prove that you have the capacity to understand details and the nafka minas etc. then they often change how they relate to you and you can get answers. That's our experience, at least.

Regular childhood vaccines no longer contain thimerosal, btw. (Some never did.) Only the annual flu shot does.

The answer to why you would inject your children is because if you don't, and enough others don't, the diseases will come back. When that happens, and you want to vaccinate (when people start dying around you, you usually want to prevent your child from being next), there may not be enough doses and you might be the ones left without. Plus some vaccines require a series of injections to be fully effective, and if there's an outbreak, you don't have time for that anymore.

That's actually what I thought about before I vaccinated my older kids. Nothing was endemic then, there were no outbreaks of anything, why take a definite (even if infinitesimally small) risk, to avoid a non-risk? But it's not really a non-risk anymore, and we knew that there would be an outbreak at some point when our first was born (because of the increasing trend not to vax). So right now the question, in my opinion, is not "is it worth it to take the risk of vaccinating" but rather "when will the next oubreak be, where and who will it strike, which of the vaccine-preventable illnesses will it involve, and how can we prevent it/ stem the spread in time to save victims' lives?"

(This is version 2.0 of my response, version 1.0 got erased....don't have time to make this perfect because I'm in a rush...)
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 4:31 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Can you offer to pay him to sit with you for an hour or two and answer all your questions? Even if it's an hour this month an hour next month.

I hear you re the sick kids. And I commend you for the precautions. It's so nice to be "speaking" with someone who actually uses common sense.

The pertussis vaccine is not 100%. If you are vaccinated you can still get pertussis. But it's not "masked" - it's just a lighter case. However, pertussis (regardless of vaccination status) has an incubation period of 3-12 days and you can be contagious before symptoms show. Also, you can be sick with pertussis more than once, regardless of vaccination status. So yes you need boosters, but that's because of how your body tags pertussis - not because of the vaccine.

So where I live the vaccinated individuals who contracted measles had all received the single vaccine, not the MMR. But theoretically yes it is possible - after 1 dose, 7 out of every 100 individuals is not immune, after 2 doses, 3 out of every 100 may not be immune. But the thing is that if an individual chooses to vax/ vax their children they are choosing that their child should not contract measles. So no one really has the right to take that choice away from them and choose to expose that child to measles. And that goes also for newborns whose parents want to vax them but need to wait until they're old enough. And what happened here was that a small minority's choice overrode the choice of these parents, in a very serious life-or-death issue. (Over half of the measles victims were under a year old.) Honestly, where I live, there is a community who doesn't vax at all. But they are very careful. They never infect others. The moment a child shows any sign of not feeling well the child is quarantined until the illness is diagnosed. If it is measles they are quarantined for about 3 weeks. And they are experts at diagnosing measles. So they have a few cases a year - maybe 5, 10 - and it never spreads. If all anti-vaxxers were like them, I'd be fine. But the fact is that they're not.

Regarding border checks, I 1000% agree with you. I don't know who got rid of it or when but if the government is serious then vaccination records should be checked before people are allowed into the country. However, that needs to be demanded of the government, not blamed on Big Pharma.

I do understand how it works, but also understand that there are big-bucks organizations nowadays who have nothing to lose, no lawsuits, no research to invest in, relayively few salaries to pay, etc., who are pouring big bucks into the anti-vax agenda, ads, and so on. I'm not saying Big Pharma and CDC are innocent, but I do think we need to acknowledge that there are big bucks on both sides, corruption on both sides, personal interests on both sides. The playing field for that issue is pretty much even. And VAERs? People can blame anything on vaccines, even smothering their baby because they were drunk.

So about the questions. I find a lot of experts are wary of answering questions from "random people," firstly because they are worried that their words will be twisted and taken out of context, or that they are being baited. And secondly they don't see a point in explaining nitty gritty details to someone who can't understand them. But if you explain that you're looking to understand, not to fight, that you are on their side, and prove that you have the capacity to understand details and the nafka minas etc. then they often change how they relate to you and you can get answers. That's our experience, at least.

Regular childhood vaccines no longer contain thimerosal, btw. (Some never did.) Only the annual flu shot does.

The answer to why you would inject your children is because if you don't, and enough others don't, the diseases will come back. When that happens, and you want to vaccinate (when people start dying around you, you usually want to prevent your child from being next), there may not be enough doses and you might be the ones left without. Plus some vaccines require a series of injections to be fully effective, and if there's an outbreak, you don't have time for that anymore.

That's actually what I thought about before I vaccinated my older kids. Nothing was endemic then, there were no outbreaks of anything, why take a definite (even if infinitesimally small) risk, to avoid a non-risk? But it's not really a non-risk anymore, and we knew that there would be an outbreak at some point when our first was born (because of the increasing trend not to vax). So right now the question, in my opinion, is not "is it worth it to take the risk of vaccinating" but rather "when will the next oubreak be, where and who will it strike, which of the vaccine-preventable illnesses will it involve, and how can we prevent it/ stem the spread in time to save victims' lives?"

(This is version 2.0 of my response, version 1.0 got erased....don't have time to make this perfect because I'm in a rush...)


The point I was making with the borders issue, vaccine failure, and unvaccinated adults, is that I dont believe herd immunity is what it's made out to be. I'm just not worried about any outbreaks as a result of not enough people vaccinating. I don't see proof of it. I believe there is a lot about disease that we don't yet know. Just like there is a lot about vaccines that we don't yet know.

Therefore I see no risk in not vaccinating my children. And it should definitely be a choice for people who believe in it. Because there is risk. And much about that risk we don't know because the genetics factor hasnt been studied.

What we do know is how to treat the diseases. Especially as medicine has advanced so much that the fatality rate is greatly reduced to just about 0.

With all this, I still believe people have no right to decide for others to catch their diseases- just like people have no right to force others to vax.
And therefore during the measles outbreak, anyone who planned to come to my house, I let them know that we are not vaccinated so that they have a choice. Even though I never discussed my vaccine beliefs in real life.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 5:13 pm
I think if we want to be honest, we can't compare first world countries to places that have scarce or polluted water sources, inadequate nutrition, different standards of living, including medical care, etc.
We also can't compare nowadays to 50, 70, 100 years ago as far as illness and living standard. It's useless since so much has changed.
When someone says look at Africa or the Philippines or the polio outbreaks even in the 1950s, flu epidemic of 1918, to me that's like comparing the horse and buggy to today's speed rail. The equation is false to begin with.

If we want to be honest, then we need to start answering the questions and concerns of the antivax people who are looking for proofs and not for coverups.

Coverups and corruption are rampant among people in high places. So will we ever know the truth? I doubt it.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 5:19 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
I think if we want to be honest, we can't compare first world countries to places that have scarce or polluted water sources, inadequate nutrition, different standards of living, including medical care, etc.
We also can't compare nowadays to 50, 70, 100 years ago as far as illness and living standard. It's useless since so much has changed.
When someone says look at Africa or the Philippines or the polio outbreaks even in the 1950s, flu epidemic of 1918, to me that's like comparing the horse and buggy to today's speed rail. The equation is false to begin with.

If we want to be honest, then we need to start answering the questions and concerns of the antivax people who are looking for proofs and not for coverups.

Coverups and corruption are rampant among people in high places. So will we ever know the truth? I doubt it.


Exactly. Nobody died from measles in USA.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 5:47 pm
These are not antivax links.
They are an eyeopener.

https://medium.com/@drjasonfun.....b8704

https://participatorymedicine.......html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....2812/
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 5:54 pm
This is new so maybe we are finally getting somewhere.

https://theconversation.com/ti.....27495
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 6:10 pm
This is also not an antivax link.
I like to get my info from live debates, broadcasted govt meetings, conversations between drs, etc.
I also follow news reports but as they are biased, the truth is usually somewhere between the lines.

Here is an example of a recorded congressional hearing which I found interesting:
https://www.govinfo.gov/conten.....7.htm

My only point in this conversation is to promote choice. People kept ignorant can't choose.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 6:49 pm
Regarding pertussis, I know few cases of kids that got it from the vaccine alone.
(Drs admitted it too)
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 7:16 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I am so sorry. Whereas doctors need malpractice insurance, I don't think that there is any recourse if someone is harmed by an unlicensed health care provider.

Back to being honest.
Let's not pretend that mistakes and carelessness are one-sided.
How many people are victims of medical malpractice?
My grandfather died!!! just a few years ago because the hospital he was in (major big city hospital) messed up on his medications.
The hospital begged our family not to sue. It was a shock.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 7:20 pm
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Regarding pertussis, I know few cases of kids that got it from the vaccine alone.
(Drs admitted it too)

So amother seagreen, in order to make this point, it needs some scientific backing. Because practically-speaking, as far as I know, that's impossible.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 7:24 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
I think if we want to be honest, we can't compare first world countries to places that have scarce or polluted water sources, inadequate nutrition, different standards of living, including medical care, etc.
We also can't compare nowadays to 50, 70, 100 years ago as far as illness and living standard. It's useless since so much has changed.
When someone says look at Africa or the Philippines or the polio outbreaks even in the 1950s, flu epidemic of 1918, to me that's like comparing the horse and buggy to today's speed rail. The equation is false to begin with.

If we want to be honest, then we need to start answering the questions and concerns of the antivax people who are looking for proofs and not for coverups.

Coverups and corruption are rampant among people in high places. So will we ever know the truth? I doubt it.


But then, shouldn't anti-vaxers at least be willing to admit that vaccines did play a role, together with nutrition, clean water, and sanitation in eliminating dangerous infection?

Maybe diphtheria and polio doesn't happen in America anymore and tetanus is mainly a risk on farms but meningitis is still a threat. So when it's all or nothing, the truth gets lost in the middle.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 10:57 pm
southernbubby wrote:
But then, shouldn't anti-vaxers at least be willing to admit that vaccines did play a role, together with nutrition, clean water, and sanitation in eliminating dangerous infection?

Maybe diphtheria and polio doesn't happen in America anymore and tetanus is mainly a risk on farms but meningitis is still a threat. So when it's all or nothing, the truth gets lost in the middle.

I can only speak for myself and I think you're right. That would be the middle ground.
But generally antivaxers are more extreme than me. I have found that some of them are more ready to accept conspiracy theories and rumors, than facts and drs' solid experience.
The thing is, modern sanitation measures, adequate nutrition, higher living standards, is common sense. You dont need science and studies to tell you that using sewer water for washing dishes will result in polio and cholera. Or that carcasses left in the street and other overcrowded filthy living conditions will cause illness and death. Etc.

Effectiveness of vaccines is harder to sell. Because if you look through history, you'll see that there were more diseases such as plague and cholera that disappeared without a vaccine.
And do you know that polio was treated effectively with citrus fruits and a series of limb exercises? But the doctors at this time fought this treatment because it was unconventional, even though it worked. We arent lacking vitamin C and rehab therapy these days.
And sanitation back then meant that the needles for smallpox vaccine were reused over and over, spreading illness and causing epidemics.
And that also the simple concepts of handwashing and sterilizing were laughed at by medical "professionals."
There is also the fact that diagnosing illness as well as treatment of disease were less than scientific in those times.
Etc etc.
So I would have to say that the statistics of early vaccine usage have got to be way off.
This is why I say, you can't compare the past to the present.
They used to treat measles patients with aspirin which caused more problems. They didnt have antibiotics for diphtheria, and proper wound care would have avoided tetanus infections. The child labor in coal mines and the like shortened the average life span as well.

What I'm trying to say is that it has to be more complicated than x number of people died from polio before the vaccine, and a much lesser number after the vaccine.
Although I do agree that vaccines in general do work to keep someone from getting ill. That is, if it's okay to count titres as immunity. It seems there is still a dispute on that amongst the scientists.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 11:37 pm
Burlywood, what problems were caused by aspirin?
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amother




Crimson
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 11:38 pm
Cholera is still around. Very much so. There have been recent outbreaks in San francisco, due to high homelessness and lack of sanitation. Definitely in third world countries.
And which plague are you referring to? Small pox? There is a vaccine, that's why. But there are still cases in non western countries that don't have access to vaccines.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 11:38 pm
As for the OP, and Kenya, that was not a legitimate news source, although true that some Catholic groups have made the allegation, it's another conspiracy theory
https://www.snopes.com/fact-ch.....tion/
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amother




Babypink
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 11:53 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Exactly. Nobody died from measles in USA.


Why are we disregarding side effects like deafness and male infertility?

And I'm skeptical that no one died, no babies or elderly people with compromised immune systems?
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Sat, Dec 07 2019, 11:59 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
The point I was making with the borders issue, vaccine failure, and unvaccinated adults, is that I dont believe herd immunity is what it's made out to be. I'm just not worried about any outbreaks as a result of not enough people vaccinating. I don't see proof of it. I believe there is a lot about disease that we don't yet know. Just like there is a lot about vaccines that we don't yet know.

Therefore I see no risk in not vaccinating my children. And it should definitely be a choice for people who believe in it. Because there is risk. And much about that risk we don't know because the genetics factor hasnt been studied.

What we do know is how to treat the diseases. Especially as medicine has advanced so much that the fatality rate is greatly reduced to just about 0.

With all this, I still believe people have no right to decide for others to catch their diseases- just like people have no right to force others to vax.
And therefore during the measles outbreak, anyone who planned to come to my house, I let them know that we are not vaccinated so that they have a choice. Even though I never discussed my vaccine beliefs in real life.

I agree that there is a lot we don't know. The question is if the risks are worth it.

I'm all for choice, as long as no one forces their choice on others. As is, where we live, a lot of vaxxers' babies were infected with measles, because anti-vaxxers did not take proper precautions and even believed that they were doing people a favor by exposing them and allowing for the development of natural immunity.

We don't know how to treat these diseases, btw. We can only provide supportive treatment: iron lungs, IVs, life support. Part of the issue is that we haven't seen these diseases for so long, we haven't really made medical advances in treating them.

I commend you for that warning, but unless you quarantined your children every time they didn't feel a tiny bit well, I'm not sure that's enough.

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
I think if we want to be honest, we can't compare first world countries to places that have scarce or polluted water sources, inadequate nutrition, different standards of living, including medical care, etc.
We also can't compare nowadays to 50, 70, 100 years ago as far as illness and living standard. It's useless since so much has changed.
When someone says look at Africa or the Philippines or the polio outbreaks even in the 1950s, flu epidemic of 1918, to me that's like comparing the horse and buggy to today's speed rail. The equation is false to begin with.

If we want to be honest, then we need to start answering the questions and concerns of the antivax people who are looking for proofs and not for coverups.

Coverups and corruption are rampant among people in high places. So will we ever know the truth? I doubt it.


So this is the thing. In a way you're right. Clean water and adequate nutrition definitely make a difference in how well a person is able to fight disease. However, medical care is only useful to a certain point, and life support is crucial in these issues. But if too many people contract a given disease at once and end up in the hospital, then hospitals will be overwhelmed and we won't be able to offer life support for everyone. And then we will go back to having much, much, higher fatality rates for these diseases.

I'm all for answering questions and concerns. I don't think that that's what many of the anti-vaxxers are looking for, even if they claim it to be so. If people are looking for research and answers, that's there. If someone is bshita against anything thats not "crunchy," then nothing anyone says will change their minds.

By the way, in developed countries measles has a 1 in 1000 death rate. If no one has died in the US, that's sheer luck, it means the 1 hasn't appeared yet. Once you reach about a thousand s/he will appear. Here in Israel we had over 4000 measles cases (4292, but there have been more that weren't updated) and sure enough we have 3 dead and one who would be dead if he wasn't on life support for over a year now (he's in a coma, suffered brain damage, even if he wakes up he's almost certainly going to be a vegetable for the rest of his life; he was a healthy 10yo with no pre-existing medical conditions before this).

If we didn't offer supportive care and life support then our death rate would be a lot higher - pretty much anyone who needed hospital care would have died. As is one in ten measles patients has required hospitalization. So take the hospitalization out when too many people get sick at once and we can't accommodate them all - and we may well end up with one in ten dead (better than the undeveloped world's one in nine, right?).

Given that hospitals already don't have too many beds to spare, I don't think it's a good idea to rely on supportive care and life support to prevent our death rates from these diseases from skyrocketing.
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