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Religious Zionist rabbonim against plastic disposables
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:20 pm
Can anyone link an article on Times of Israel about this topic?

Apparently Israelis are the second biggest per capita users of single use plastic disposables in the world and the stuff ends up in our water, salt, and fish and becomes part of our bodies.
The signatories are a group of 30 rabbonim who are asking the public not to serve holiday meals on plastic disposables.
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amother




Pearl


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:25 pm
Really bothers me. I doubt the frum population's understandable usage of disposables is the issue or driving force of plastic pollution. Particularly in E"Y which has a population of one of the US' large cities.
Really allergic to people trying to control and impose on others; if they don't want to use it and their wives are ok with it then great for them.
Even with the best of intentions.
AYLOR.
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amother




Powderblue


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:26 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/w...../amp/

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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amother




Orchid


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:30 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

I like when rabbis stick to halacha and the like. AYLOR.


In general, I agree with you. But most rabbis do not. Also, what are the parameters of halacha? That's sticky to define. You could definitely argue that damaging the environment is a halachic issue, certainly no less than the internet or jean skirts.
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ShishKabob




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:31 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Really bothers me. I doubt the frum population's understandable usage of disposables is the issue or driving force of plastic pollution. Particularly in E"Y which has a population of one of the US' large cities.
Really allergic to people trying to control and impose on others; if they don't want to use it and their wives are ok with it then great for them.
Even with the best of intentions not ok.
I like when rabbis stick to halacha and the like. AYLOR.

I'm not saying I agree with this.
However, halacha dictates that we be kind to the earth and the environment as well. So it may be in the Rabbis jurisdiction after all.
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amother




Orchid


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:37 pm
amother [ Pearl ] wrote:
Really bothers me. I doubt the frum population's understandable usage of disposables is the issue or driving force of plastic pollution. Particularly in E"Y which has a population of one of the US' large cities.
.


Israelis use a TON of disposables. Especially those who are clean freaks. There are families where everything is served on disposable, all week long. Many many people use fancy disposables on Shabbat too. The availability, the choice and even the price is much better than in the states.

Israelis are among the world's top users of disposable dishes and cutlery. According to an April report by the Israel Union for Environmental Defense, Israelis spend some 2 billion Israeli shekels ($574 million) annually on single-use dishes. The environmental organization Green Course claims Israel is the world’s second top user per capita of single-use plastic after the United States. This data turns Israel into a senior partner in global plastic pollution.



According to Israel Aviav, co-founder and CEO of WinPac, Israelis consume the largest number of plastic cups in the world on a per capita basis. Based on his experience, he said, Israelis use more than 250 million plastic cups and more than 12 million paper cups per month. “Every office, every kiosk, every doctor’s clinic, they all use plastic cups,” he said.


Aviav links Israel’s heightened use of disposables to a cultural tradition of hosting big family dinners, and to the preferences of the Orthodox Jewish sector.


At a Peamit chain store in central Israel, shoppers talked to Calcalist about their disposables using habits. Shoval Goharian, a young soldier, told Calcalist that her family uses only disposable tableware at home. “In the morning, I eat breakfast cereal out of a plastic bowl and drink coffee out of a paper cup,” she said. “At lunch, my mom has no energy to wash the dishes so I use disposables. It's been like this since I was a kid. My dad is a clean freak, dishes in the sink drive him crazy.”


A middle-aged Jewish orthodox couple told Calcalist they regularly use disposable tableware at home. “We have six kids and they eat constantly,” they said. “We cannot have the sinks full all the time. It is a big expense, but one we have been living with for years, as part of our family budget,” they said. “Every week we buy packs of disposable tableware. We use real dinnerware only when we have guests over for dinner.”
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amother




Pearl


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:42 pm
I can understand the sentiments of those quoted such as the middle aged orthodox couple.
If disposables use helps a frum family live a happy healthy frum life I support that.
I would imagine this issue can be addressed more effectively from other angles such as creating more biodegradable disposables for one example without vilifying or stigmatizing personal preferences of Jews, Israelis, frum yidden. Perhaps I simply have a sensitivity to this given the context that I feel we are always scrutinized, criticized, held to a double standard and the like hence my reaction.
Again, nothing against these rabbis who I am sure have the best of intentions only to help.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:51 pm
Every city on earth has to figure out how to deal with trash. My grandparents made very little trash and we grandchildren ate watermelon rind preserves. They were the generation that grew victory gardens and reused jars, oatmeal boxes, and cloth floor bags.

NYC is curbing plastic grocery bags because they have to go somewhere when they are finished being used to take home groceries and nobody has figured out what ocean to dump them in.
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Rappel




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:51 pm
What a great initiative!

I actually think about this a lot, and it bothers me greatly: I want to reduce plastic trash from my home, but almost everything comes in plastic packaging these days. I understand why they do it, and I'm not yet ready to give up on all those items yet, but...I wish there were an option C.


Last edited by Rappel on Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Teomima




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:52 pm
I think this is great. People need to recognize the environmental repercussions of decisions we make based on convenience. Single use plastics, driving vs. public transportation, product packaging, waste disposal, etc. I'm not saying everyone has to suddenly stop using plastics and get rid of their car, of course there are are decisions we all have to make for the sake of not driving ourselves totally insane. But it's not unreasonable to spend a little more time and consideration into the choices we make and actions we take. For example, no one needs to buy, and dispose of, so many plastic bottles when you can buy a reusable one instead. Or maybe you can't tolerate a sink-full of dishes and feel you have to use plastic...then at least use and wash real cutlery. Or use compostable plastic alternatives (then actually compost them).

I have no issue with Rabbonim weighing in. It won't suddenly make it halacha, you still have to choose for yourself. But why shouldn't they use their power of persuasion for the good of the environment? Hashem gave us this beautiful home and it's scientific fact that we are destroying it. The least we can do is put an extra moment of thought into it.
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watergirl




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 12:58 pm
A middle-aged Jewish orthodox couple told Calcalist they regularly use disposable tableware at home. “We have six kids and they eat constantly,” they said. “We cannot have the sinks full all the time. It is a big expense, but one we have been living with for years, as part of our family budget,” they said. “Every week we buy packs of disposable tableware. We use real dinnerware only when we have guests over for dinner.”

The bold. Thats the problem. There are so many ways around this and yes! These disposables are such an issue!! Especially with succos and pesach - the amount of trash is truly frightening. I use tins (can be recycled) but thats it. I cant stomach the expense. The mother in the quote above can teach her kids to clean their plates themselves, she can limit meal times, she can think of other ways to minimize her trash - but she chooses to buy disposables. She can learn to be ok with a full sink and wash the dishes at the end of the night. So many options. Throwing away money and trash does not have to be one of them.

There is one Instagram "chef" who people were talking about, so I followed her for a day to see what the big deal was about. So many of her pictures and videos had all disposables, it was insane! Showing how she makes coffee and pours it in a styrofoam cup... unfollow!
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baby12x




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:05 pm
watergirl wrote:
A middle-aged Jewish orthodox couple told Calcalist they regularly use disposable tableware at home. “We have six kids and they eat constantly,” they said. “We cannot have the sinks full all the time. It is a big expense, but one we have been living with for years, as part of our family budget,” they said. “Every week we buy packs of disposable tableware. We use real dinnerware only when we have guests over for dinner.”

The bold. Thats the problem. There are so many ways around this and yes! These disposables are such an issue!! Especially with succos and pesach - the amount of trash is truly frightening. I use tins (can be recycled) but thats it. I cant stomach the expense. The mother in the quote above can teach her kids to clean their plates themselves, she can limit meal times, she can think of other ways to minimize her trash - but she chooses to buy disposables. She can learn to be ok with a full sink and wash the dishes at the end of the night. So many options. Throwing away money and trash does not have to be one of them.

There is one Instagram "chef" who people were talking about, so I followed her for a day to see what the big deal was about. So many of her pictures and videos had all disposables, it was insane! Showing how she makes coffee and pours it in a styrofoam cup... unfollow!


Many people also only have 1 sink so its not just a matter of having dishes sit in a sink but on a counter.
Also, not everyone can afford enough real dishes to feed a crowd. I only have 7 plates remaining of my set. Its just too big of a expense right now to buy more real.

I do try as much as possible to minimize waste but honestly it seems a bit pointless. We can all stop using plastic and it won't have even the same effect as 1 company deciding to cut 1 oz of plastic from their packaging, or have the same effect as 1 billionare deciding not to use a private jet 1 time.

Big changes are needed- not making people feel guilty for trying to get through the day or the yom tov
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amother




Seafoam


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:06 pm
How about using all the money they spent on disposables and buying a dishwasher?
Seriously.
There’s so much waste. Taking care of the environment needs to be a priority in our communities. We owe it to the next generations
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watergirl




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:14 pm
baby12x wrote:
Many people also only have 1 sink so its not just a matter of having dishes sit in a sink but on a counter.
Also, not everyone can afford enough real dishes to feed a crowd. I only have 7 plates remaining of my set. Its just too big of a expense right now to buy more real.

I do try as much as possible to minimize waste but honestly it seems a bit pointless. We can all stop using plastic and it won't have even the same effect as 1 company deciding to cut 1 oz of plastic from their packaging, or have the same effect as 1 billionare deciding not to use a private jet 1 time.

Big changes are needed- not making people feel guilty for trying to get through the day or the yom tov


I'm going to toot my own horn for a second.

This is the first time in YEARS that I have two sinks. We kept a bin under the sink and put dirty dishes in it while the sink had another bin for the opposite type of dish. A rack at the bottom. Annoying, but possible. Not fun. Not pleasant. But possible. Re; expense - do you understand how cheap real dishes are at Ikea? One year before pesach, I was loading my cart with disposable plates/bowls, etc and added it up - $80. We have very little to spend. I could not stomach spending $80 on something to throw away. So we went to Ikea. Spent the same $80 and now have a set of plates/bowls/salad plates/etc.

No one is MAKING anyone feel a certain way. That is on the person. I can not make anyone feel a certain way.

I do think we dont give ourselves enough credit where its needed. I simply dont have the money to spend on dishes to throw away. I wash my dishes and use them again for the next meal. Its a lot of work, so I switch off washing dishes with my husband - we each take a meal. I do all of my very simple cooking before the YT so I am not in the kitchen the whole time. A sink full of dishes takes 15-20 mins. Not a big deal.

My husband and I make our own choice and of course to each their own. But please, skip the apologetics and rationale. If we each do our part, nothing is pointless.

For me, its not about the environment to be totally honest. Its about my wallet. I simply do not have the money to spend on the disposables.
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rzab




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:18 pm
You know why so israel has such a high use of disposables? Bc many families are larger then the average American family, I think the average here is 5 as opposed to 2 in the US. Most homes are dual income family which means both parents are working. And we have shabbat and chagim and like to entertain. There's only a limit to what some people can do. I chose to use disposables over Rosh hashana bc I was having a ton of company and did not want to spend the whole chag washing dishes. I also was not willing to do it at the expense of my time in shul.
I know a lot of what I wrote also applies to the frum communities in chutz laretz as well, but the frum community isn't large enough to away stats in the US. And I don't know for sure but I would guess that if they surveyed people in ny they would find that a high percentage of disposables being used in ny were being used in the frum communities (especially if they took this month into account)
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Iymnok




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:21 pm
After Yom Tov I had to run my dishwasher 3 times. It was totally worth the dishes I washed before each seuda. We have large sets if China and cutlery to minimize the washing on shabbos, but two day brings it all out.
The Beaty of a dishwasher is that you can hide all the dirty pots and dishes until after the chag.
I went through one trash bag since I didn’t have disposable cups and plates filling it up. I will admit that I used plastic tablecloths, it made me less crazy over the sticky honey everywhere.
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:29 pm
baby12x wrote:
Many people also only have 1 sink so its not just a matter of having dishes sit in a sink but on a counter.
Also, not everyone can afford enough real dishes to feed a crowd. I only have 7 plates remaining of my set. Its just too big of a expense right now to buy more real.

I do try as much as possible to minimize waste but honestly it seems a bit pointless. We can all stop using plastic and it won't have even the same effect as 1 company deciding to cut 1 oz of plastic from their packaging, or have the same effect as 1 billionare deciding not to use a private jet 1 time.

Big changes are needed- not making people feel guilty for trying to get through the day or the yom tov

Sorry but disposables are the MOST EXPENSIVE thing you can buy. Every supermarket or store for home decor have sales on dinner sets. Unless you are set on buying Rosenthal or some other expensive top-of-the-line brand.
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imasinger




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:30 pm
I struggle with both sides of this issue.

I agree that we need to take better care of our planet.

I also often find myself with a choice -- either I get to go to shul and daven, or In stay home (or stay up late, then am too exhausted in the morning) doing dishes.

My personal solution is to do what I can, and try to gradually stretch.

So, we have tons of silverware, but I used paper plates and cups (not plastic) for one meal, China for the rest. Still managed to be in shul both days, b"H.

I reuse plastic serveware whenever possible. It lasts pretty well, and is lighter than the alternative. I only use plastic disposable plates for the sedarim, but not the rest of the year. I only buy cardboard disposable hot cups, and those, not very often.

My current challenge is to try to cut down on sandwich bags and use reusable containers. It's a struggle.
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Iymnok




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:35 pm
I spent $300 each on two sets of service for 8 Noritake China. (50pcs) I have used it for over 10 years. How many shabbos meal disposable settings can you buy for that amount? Not 10 years worth.
The little kids use my weekday Corelle.
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Oct 02 2019, 1:39 pm
watergirl wrote:
I was loading my cart with disposable plates/bowls, etc and added it up - $80. We have very little to spend. I could not stomach spending $80 on something to throw away. So we went to Ikea. Spent the same $80 and now have a set of plates/bowls/salad plates/etc.

For me, its not about the environment to be totally honest. Its about my wallet. I simply do not have the money to spend on the disposables.

Personally,I also don't want to throw my money in the garbage.
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