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Kaparos without tzaar balei chaim
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amother




OP


Post  Thu, Oct 03 2019, 2:39 pm
I don't think using chickens for kaparos is wrong, but the way they are treated at kaparos places is inhumane. They are stacked in tiny, filthy crates and they look like more like shmattes than birds. Is there any alternative way to get chickens for kaparos?
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 03 2019, 2:42 pm
DH and I have been doing Kapparos with money for years, for this reason.

Zeh HaKesef Yelech L'tzedakah.....and there are plenty of worthy organizations that are the destination of our Kapparos.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 03 2019, 3:08 pm
The chickens used for kapparos don't even get donated so there's no tzedakah included when you do kapparos this way.
Instead use money and donate the money to tomchai shabbos.
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amother




Maroon


Post  Thu, Oct 03 2019, 3:56 pm
Chayalle wrote:
DH and I have been doing Kapparos with money for years, for this reason.

Zeh HaKesef Yelech L'tzedakah.....and there are plenty of worthy organizations that are the destination of our Kapparos.


Us, too.
If we lived in a rural area where we had access to do it without tzaar baalei Chaim. That would be a different thing.
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 7:36 am
You need to find a good generally small place.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 8:04 am
We have gone in the past to a farm, and now to chicken slaughterhouses.

To be honest, the chicken that you eat is not treated any better than the kaparos chickens. Neither are the cows you drink milk and eat cheese from. (Having seen both.)

I make sure that the chickens we use for kaparos are properly shechted and go to the poor.

If there wasn't such a backlash against it, I might be less inclined to do it, when there are other acceptable options. But when people are fighting against it BECAUSE IT IS A MITZVAH, then it shows me that it is more important than I thought. So I will go to all ends of the world (drive several hours with all of my kids at a crazy hour of the morning) because doing a mitzvah in the best way is worth Mesiras Nefesh.

We are careful to handle the chickens very gently, and minimize any fear or pain for them.
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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 8:36 am
In a big quandary about this as well. My husband really appreciates when the whole family does it with chickens, as is family minhag but I hate it.
How can we beg for mercy when we're not treating the chickens with mercy?
I've once gone to a free range farm in East Amwell NJ but they since then closed down. Also although they did use a method similar to shcitah the farm owner wasn't a shochet so couldn't give the chicken to tzedakah, his family just ate it or sold it I'm not sure. Most years I do it by kaparos but there's such mixed feelings about it. I want to do the right thing but I'm not sure this is it.
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seeker




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 10:10 am
I literally never heard of anyone against it "because it is a mitzvah" (which is anyway actually a minhag with various ways to fulfill. We're not talking matzah here. The money option is valid and I have never heard a halachic opinion to the contrary.) People are against it because of the universal appalling mistreatment of animals, because that is an aveira.

You can either raise your own chickens after learning how to do it humanely (I know a few families who raise chickens, not for kapparos but for eggs) or you can if necessary do hataras nedarim on your minhag and use money.
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 11:05 am
Some are very very into their minhag or what they think is their minhag.

It's not always the frumest.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 11:29 am
seeker wrote:
I literally never heard of anyone against it "because it is a mitzvah" (which is anyway actually a minhag with various ways to fulfill. We're not talking matzah here. The money option is valid and I have never heard a halachic opinion to the contrary.) People are against it because of the universal appalling mistreatment of animals, because that is an aveira.

You can either raise your own chickens after learning how to do it humanely (I know a few families who raise chickens, not for kapparos but for eggs) or you can if necessary do hataras nedarim on your minhag and use money.

Do you also not eat chicken? Do you not drink milk? The exact same "appalling mistreatment" is going on at every kosher and non-kosher slaughterhouse and dairy farm, perhaps with the exception of free-range animals.

The fact that nobody is protesting against chicken soup or cheesecake, but only against kaparos, tells me that yes - it's because it's a mitzvah.

I seek to minimize the Tzaar Baalei Chaim issue, by going to the slaughterhouse instead of having the chickens trucked to me, by treating them gently, and by ensuring that they are shechted properly and used for the poor instead of being trashed (as they are in many places, unfortunately).

But I still will have Mesiras Nefesh to do it.
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 11:46 am
My kids' charedi school says chicken, fish or money (my sefardic family did eggs)
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amother




Denim


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:31 pm
I have this dilemma every year.
I'm Chassidish lite, it's my family's minhag, but I can't handle the mistreatment.
I know it's not better at slaughterhouses and farms but here at least I can do something about it. ( I am thinking of giving up on meat, I don't wear fur, I'm still deciding about leather shoes).
I live in Monsey. If anyone knows who I can discuss this with or possibly a free range farm not too far, I'd really appreciate it.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:35 pm
You can buy your own chickens, take care of them and do kapparos in your own home. Then bring chickens to shochet who is working for a kapparah station and pay for shechita. Bring home chickens and defeather and kasher on your own.
We used to do this at my grandma's house years ago.
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seeker




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:35 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Do you also not eat chicken? Do you not drink milk? The exact same "appalling mistreatment" is going on at every kosher and non-kosher slaughterhouse and dairy farm, perhaps with the exception of free-range animals.

The fact that nobody is protesting against chicken soup or cheesecake, but only against kaparos, tells me that yes - it's because it's a mitzvah.

I seek to minimize the Tzaar Baalei Chaim issue, by going to the slaughterhouse instead of having the chickens trucked to me, by treating them gently, and by ensuring that they are shechted properly and used for the poor instead of being trashed (as they are in many places, unfortunately).

But I still will have Mesiras Nefesh to do it.

It's not because it's a mitzvah, it's because it's in your face. Food slaughterhouses are out of sight, out of mind for most people. And I ought to go compare for myself but I'm pretty sure they're not as bad as the kapporos places I've seen. I haven't been to one personally but XDH was in the business and from what I understand it's not beautiful but a lot better than the street situation.


Last edited by seeker on Fri, Oct 04 2019, 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Forestgreen


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:38 pm
ra_mom wrote:
The chickens used for kapparos don't even get donated so there's no tzedakah included when you do kapparos this way.
Instead use money and donate the money to tomchai shabbos.


Really?
In Lakewood supposedly they are donated to the beis hatavishil.
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seeker




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:38 pm
But yes if I had more integrity I probably would be trying not to support the meat and poultry food market either. I just don't have the wherewithal right now to overhaul my life like that. I have difficulty digesting beans and dairy and I can't stand fish if fish are indeed better off than birds and cows. So at this point I'd rather advocate for better practices without actually putting my mouth where my money is.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 12:40 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
Really?
In Lakewood supposedly they are donated to the beis hatavishil.

In Brooklyn Tomchei Shabbos does not take the chickens since they are low quality.
The news has reported many times stacks of black garbage bags full of dead chicken carcasses found at the garbage dump over YT.
Call Beis Hatavishil and find out if they're getting the chickens.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 1:01 pm
seeker wrote:
It's not because it's a mitzvah, it's because it's on your face. Food slaughterhouses are out of sight, out of mind for most people. And I ought to go compare for myself but I'm pretty sure they're not as bad as the kapporos places I've seen. I haven't been to one personally but XDH was in the business and from what I understand it's not beautiful but a lot better than the street situation.

I don't go to those Kaparos places, so I can't say. I go to the slaughterhouse. The chickens there are not treated any worse than they are in the plant.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 1:03 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
I don't go to those Kaparos places, so I can't say. I go to the slaughterhouse. The chickens there are not treated any worse than they are in the plant.

Some Kapparos places don't feed chickens, leave in the burning sun, are handled by 8 year olds who hurt the chickens...
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amother




Brunette


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 1:13 pm
ra_mom wrote:
Some Kapparos places don't feed chickens, leave in the burning sun, are handled by 8 year olds who hurt the chickens...

In such a case I would use money. I did that once when the shochet informed us that he wasn't going to be kashering the chickens that year.
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