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Kaparos without tzaar balei chaim
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 04 2019, 2:22 pm
It makes me so mad, because people are prioritizing a inyan over a doreisa. I wish someone would open a humane kapporos place. But for now...
If the Torah won’t let us eat until we feed our animals; if Moshe was chosen because of his rachmanus towards a sheep; if there are such intricate halachos making sure that the animal shouldn’t feel even a drop of pain when being slaughtered...
How do you think Hashem is okay with this?
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 6:29 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Do you also not eat chicken? Do you not drink milk? The exact same "appalling mistreatment" is going on at every kosher and non-kosher slaughterhouse and dairy farm, perhaps with the exception of free-range animals.

That is an argument against the use of animals, not pro kaparos.
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 6:31 pm
I'm really frustrated because a lot of people I know IRL seem to think opposing cruelty to chickens makes me a militant PETA activist.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 6:52 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
That is an argument against the use of animals, not pro kaparos.

Eating chicken on Tuesday is not a mitzvah. Kaparos is.

Pro kaparos with chickens = this is a longstanding Minhag Yisroel.

Tzar Baalei Chaim is not integral to it, and can be avoided without getting rid of the minhag altogether.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 7:19 pm
We took some grandchildren to kapporas and used one rooster for all of the boys and one chicken for the girls. DH shared with the boys and I shared with the girls so that the whole activity for us involved only 2 animals. They got to do the mitzvah with minimal harm to animals.
Although I know that it can be done with money, I wanted the kids to experience it.
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amother




Orange


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 7:22 pm
did not know that you could do it without one for each -- at my grandchildren's schools they bring chickens to the school so the kids can shlug
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 7:26 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
did not know that you could do it without one for each -- at my grandchildren's schools they bring chickens to the school so the kids can shlug


We were always told that it is acceptable to share but preferable to provide one for each.
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 7:28 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Eating chicken on Tuesday is not a mitzvah. Kaparos is.

Mitzvah Haba'ah Be'aveyra
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amother




Brunette


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 7:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Mitzvah Haba'ah Be'aveyra

Guess you missed the rest of my post. Tzaar Baalei Chaim is NOT integral to the mitzvah.

I'm going to assume that the standard treatment of chickens for shechitah is not considered Tzaar Baalei Chaim, because nobody is up in arms about that. There are plenty of Kaparos locations where the chickens are treated equally well or better - both of the places I have gone most recently were like that.

I agree 100% that Tzaar Baalei Chaim is not okay even under the guise of a mitzvah. But if you eat chicken and meat, and only don't do Kaparos, despite going to a place where chickens are treated properly, you don't have the chickens' wellbeing in mind.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 8:22 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Guess you missed the rest of my post. Tzaar Baalei Chaim is NOT integral to the mitzvah.

I'm going to assume that the standard treatment of chickens for shechitah is not considered Tzaar Baalei Chaim, because nobody is up in arms about that. There are plenty of Kaparos locations where the chickens are treated equally well or better - both of the places I have gone most recently were like that.

I agree 100% that Tzaar Baalei Chaim is not okay even under the guise of a mitzvah. But if you eat chicken and meat, and only don't do Kaparos, despite going to a place where chickens are treated properly, you don't have the chickens' wellbeing in mind.


I think that there is a difference between animals slaughtered for food and ones that will be killed and disposed of. It goes without saying that the treatment of animals today has a negative effect on animals, humans, and the environment and little is being done to change it. If it was reasonably certain that the suffering of the chickens, who were stuffed in crates piled up on top of each other, was going to decrease the suffering of hungry children, then it would be a more compelling reason to buy each kid their own chicken, even if they wanted to get as far away from the chickens as possible.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:04 pm
There are places that do so. The place I go to (a plant) gives the chickens or their value to tzedakah.

I will not do kaparos with chickens that will be discarded.
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Mothers




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:33 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
We have gone in the past to a farm, and now to chicken slaughterhouses.

To be honest, the chicken that you eat is not treated any better than the kaparos chickens. Neither are the cows you drink milk and eat cheese from. (Having seen both.)

I make sure that the chickens we use for kaparos are properly shechted and go to the poor.

If there wasn't such a backlash against it, I might be less inclined to do it, when there are other acceptable options. But when people are fighting against it BECAUSE IT IS A MITZVAH, then it shows me that it is more important than I thought. So I will go to all ends of the world (drive several hours with all of my kids at a crazy hour of the morning) because doing a mitzvah in the best way is worth Mesiras Nefesh.

We are careful to handle the chickens very gently, and minimize any fear or pain for them.


No one is against it BECAUSE IT IS A MITZVAH. People are against it because of the appalling cruelty to animals and tza’ar ba’alei chaim involved, which outweighs the minhag of using chickens for kapparos. I have always used money - as is the minhag in my family - but after half a century of using chickens, my husband switched to money several years ago, after witnessing leftover chickens left outside in the sun all Yom Kippur, without any food or water. Using chickens under those circumstances is a matter of yatza schara b’hefseda.
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MitzadSheini




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:37 pm
https://www.theyeshivaworld.co......html
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amother




Brunette


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:46 pm
Mothers wrote:
No one is against it BECAUSE IT IS A MITZVAH. People are against it because of the appalling cruelty to animals and tza’ar ba’alei chaim involved, which outweighs the minhag of using chickens for kapparos. I have always used money - as is the minhag in my family - but after half a century of using chickens, my husband switched to money several years ago, after witnessing leftover chickens left outside in the sun all Yom Kippur, without any food or water. Using chickens under those circumstances is a matter of yatza schara b’hefseda.

Doing Kaparos at such a place, where they don't feed chickens, is certainly Yatza Schara Behefseda.

But that is not your only choice. We drive a few hours to do Kaparos at a kosher chicken plant, where the chickens are treated decently (as well or better than your chicken soup chickens), are shechted promptly and properly, and the chickens or their value given to tzedakah.

Much of the complaints about Kaparos include the crowded cages, noise and dirt. Those aspects are unfortunately standard care for ANY chickens used for food or eggs nowadays. Dairy cows are also treated in a similar fashion.

When people are up in arms about Kaparos with chickens in general, despite the fact that Kaparos can certainly be done without starving chickens, manhandling them, or discarding them; while they eat chicken/meat/eggs/dairy - yes it's BECAUSE IT'S A MITZVAH.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 10:28 pm
Brunette, I have not met anyone who is against it in general. People are against the conditions. Sorry that I am not ready to rent a car and travel a few hours, but it’s not because I am against mitzvos.
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Mothers




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 10:34 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Doing Kaparos at such a place, where they don't feed chickens, is certainly Yatza Schara Behefseda.

But that is not your only choice. We drive a few hours to do Kaparos at a kosher chicken plant, where the chickens are treated decently (as well or better than your chicken soup chickens), are shechted promptly and properly, and the chickens or their value given to tzedakah.

Much of the complaints about Kaparos include the crowded cages, noise and dirt. Those aspects are unfortunately standard care for ANY chickens used for food or eggs nowadays. Dairy cows are also treated in a similar fashion.

When people are up in arms about Kaparos with chickens in general, despite the fact that Kaparos can certainly be done without starving chickens, manhandling them, or discarding them; while they eat chicken/meat/eggs/dairy - yes it's BECAUSE IT'S A MITZVAH.


I’ve never heard of people picketing or being against kapparos at a place where chickens are treated decently. Yes, you can drive a few hours to find humanely treated chickens and fulfill the minhag that way - but that’s not what’s commonly done. The way kapparos are typically done (at least in cities) generally involves cruelty to the chickens and tzaar ba’alei chaim - and that’s what people are against.
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amother




Ecru


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 8:01 am
This tradition needs to die. It's inhumane. I saw the chickens crammed in cages yesterday. I saw men holding them by their wings while their body was hanging. This is unnecessary cruelty. It makes me very sad that they do not have any concern for their suffering.
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amother




Cerise


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 8:40 am
seeker wrote:
It's not because it's a mitzvah, it's because it's in your face. Food slaughterhouses are out of sight, out of mind for most people. And I ought to go compare for myself but I'm pretty sure they're not as bad as the kapporos places I've seen. I haven't been to one personally but XDH was in the business and from what I understand it's not beautiful but a lot better than the street situation.


Animals raised for milk, meat and eggs also undergo torture.
I agree there is an 'out of sight, out of mind' mentality. The kapparot bother people because they are in your face.

I am a vegan. I wish rabbis would only give kosher certificates to places that treat animals humanely. Right now, it's not happening. Read up on the dairy industry or male chicks in the egg industry.
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ally




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 8:41 am
As a non vegetarian it would be disingenuous for me to have a problem with kappores in principal. And I have done it in an abbatoir and my husband has done it in a farm.

But it is so obvious to me that kappores in the city involves so much tzaar baalei chayim and baal tashchis - that I can not comprehend how it continues.

אין מצוה בא על ידי עבירה. And this is minhag.
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ally




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 8:45 am
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
Animals raised for milk, meat and eggs also undergo torture.
I agree there is an 'out of sight, out of mind' mentality. The kapparot bother people because they are in your face.

I am a vegan. I wish rabbis would only give kosher certificates to places that treat animals humanely. Right now, it's not happening. Read up on the dairy industry or male chicks in the egg industry.


I agree with you on principle- although I’m not a vegetarian. It will never happen because it is not economically or culturally feasible.

But the conditions of kappores in the city are way worse than factory farming. And many of the chickens just go to waste.
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