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Kaparos without tzaar balei chaim
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amother




Orange


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 8:46 am
there are groups that picket and video everywhere they can -- regardless of animal treatment
thats part of the concern
hopefully we are all doing this mitzvah in the proper way
last year we saw people coming to video, they couldn't find anything wrong, we did not appreciate being videod its disrespectful at best
would love to see what would happen if these groups tried to do that to groups other than Jews -- that alone says a lot
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amother




Brunette


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 9:40 am
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
This tradition needs to die. It's inhumane. I saw the chickens crammed in cages yesterday. I saw men holding them by their wings while their body was hanging. This is unnecessary cruelty. It makes me very sad that they do not have any concern for their suffering.

See, those cages are how chickens are stored and transported everywhere. If they didn’t come to kaparos they’d still be in those types of crowded cages.

And holding chickens under their wings may look cruel, but if you pick them up that way, similar to picking up a child under their arms, the chicken is actually quiet and calm. Hardly torture.

I do think we should take a stand against things like starving, manhandling, or wasting the chickens. But if you are angry enough about the cages that you’ll drop a long-standing minhag yisroel, at least be consistent and stop eating eggs.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 9:52 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
See, those cages are how chickens are stored and transported everywhere. If they didn’t come to kaparos they’d still be in those types of crowded cages.

And holding chickens under their wings may look cruel, but if you pick them up that way, similar to picking up a child under their arms, the chicken is actually quiet and calm. Hardly torture.

I do think we should take a stand against things like starving, manhandling, or wasting the chickens. But if you are angry enough about the cages that you’ll drop a long-standing minhag yisroel, at least be consistent and stop eating eggs.


But what is wrong with doing the minhag by sharing chickens among family members? My limited understanding is that where it was difficult to get live chickens, large groups shared chickens. Then there is also the matter of cost because in some places it is pricey.
I can picture day schools with a less committed parent body bringing just enough chickens for the girls to share a female and the boys to share a male.
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amother




Orange


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 9:55 am
The idea as Ive learned it is that people "share" only when there are not other options, I.e. enough available, the option to get one per each person. The minhag is to do the optimal which is one per person B"H we can.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:00 am
southernbubby wrote:
But what is wrong with doing the minhag by sharing chickens among family members? My limited understanding is that where it was difficult to get live chickens, large groups shared chickens. Then there is also the matter of cost because in some places it is pricey.
I can picture day schools with a less committed parent body bringing just enough chickens for the girls to share a female and the boys to share a male.

This is part of the minhag. White chickens, one per person, three for a pregnant woman (we don’t have her even share with her unborn baby), ideally Erev Yom Kippur, being part of kisui hadam, and donated to tzedakah.

Tashlich can be done after Rosh Hashana, by your running sink if that’s your only choice. Doesn’t make that the right or ideal way to do the mitzvah (also a minhag btw).

We don’t look for the easy way out for mitzvos.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:04 am
southernbubby wrote:
But what is wrong with doing the minhag by sharing chickens among family members? My limited understanding is that where it was difficult to get live chickens, large groups shared chickens. Then there is also the matter of cost because in some places it is pricey.
I can picture day schools with a less committed parent body bringing just enough chickens for the girls to share a female and the boys to share a male.

We used to share too.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:31 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
This is part of the minhag. White chickens, one per person, three for a pregnant woman (we don’t have her even share with her unborn baby), ideally Erev Yom Kippur, being part of kisui hadam, and donated to tzedakah.

Tashlich can be done after Rosh Hashana, by your running sink if that’s your only choice. Doesn’t make that the right or ideal way to do the mitzvah (also a minhag btw).

We don’t look for the easy way out for mitzvos.


Under ideal circumstances, I would take the newly schechted chickens home, clean them, check for anything that would render them treif, kasher them, and give them to the poor to cook and eat before Yom Kippur.
Kapporas would take place before dawn on erev Yom Kippur.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 10:58 am
southernbubby wrote:
Under ideal circumstances, I would take the newly schechted chickens home, clean them, check for anything that would render them treif, kasher them, and give them to the poor to cook and eat before Yom Kippur.
Kapporas would take place before dawn on erev Yom Kippur.

Not sure why cleaning them and kashering them in your own home is so necessary. All of the other things you mentioned are done. Kapparos before dawn on Erev Yom Kippur, shechted right away, kashered, given to the poor.

If you MUST compromise on some point, that's what you have to do. But it's not the same as saying that because a compromise exists nobody should bother doing it properly.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:09 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Not sure why cleaning them and kashering them in your own home is so necessary. All of the other things you mentioned are done. Kapparos before dawn on Erev Yom Kippur, shechted right away, kashered, given to the poor.

If you MUST compromise on some point, that's what you have to do. But it's not the same as saying that because a compromise exists nobody should bother doing it properly.


We did it in Brooklyn yesterday. After you shlug kapporas, you put the chicken in the crate for the shochet but unless you see it schechted, you don't know if it was still alive by the time the shochet gets it. The mitzvah is in schecting it and it must be alive at the time that it is schechted or you need to do it again. Yes I agree that someone else could kasher it but there have to be enough people to do that as well as enough equipment for thousands of chickens.
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ShishKabob




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:30 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
Do you also not eat chicken? Do you not drink milk? The exact same "appalling mistreatment" is going on at every kosher and non-kosher slaughterhouse and dairy farm, perhaps with the exception of free-range animals.

The fact that nobody is protesting against chicken soup or cheesecake, but only against kaparos, tells me that yes - it's because it's a mitzvah.

I seek to minimize the Tzaar Baalei Chaim issue, by going to the slaughterhouse instead of having the chickens trucked to me, by treating them gently, and by ensuring that they are shechted properly and used for the poor instead of being trashed (as they are in many places, unfortunately).

But I still will have Mesiras Nefesh to do it.

I personally use money, however, I appreciate the fair and balanced approach that you are providing.
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amother




OP


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:40 am
Why is consistency better when you're making yourself consistent by extending your flawed behavior?
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amother




Cerise


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:52 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Why is consistency better when you're making yourself consistent by extending your flawed behavior?


This!!! We should strive to always do better, not lower ourselves to the lowest standard we may display in one area.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 11:56 am
I have never used a live chicken, and I never plan to. I also look for organic and free range animal products whenever possible, and completely avoid farmed fish.

If you want to know of an excellent shochet who is makpid that the chickens are fed, watered, and treated fairly from start to finish, and you're in London, PM me. He makes sure that as few chickens as possible are made treif by rough handling. Every year the rabbis yell at him because he won't rush, and makes a fuss about taking care of the birds.

Stamford Hill, where most of the Satmar do kapparot. If interested, I can tell you who to ask for. Don't want to post publicly in case he doesn't want his name to be Googled.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Mon, Oct 07 2019, 1:20 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Why is consistency better when you're making yourself consistent by extending your flawed behavior?

This philosophy reminds me of the Jewish organization who recommended not lighting the menorah "to protect the planet." Suggesting that people not drive on Shabbos to protect the planet wasn't on the table...

How about you do Kaparos at a place that treats the chickens right, and then skip eating chicken one night to demonstrate that you don't approve of the treatment at poultry farms?

Trust me, your chicken is much happier to serve Hashem by being used for Kaparos Lesheim Shomayim than to serve as your Tuesday dinner.
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 12:57 pm
ra_mom wrote:
In Brooklyn Tomchei Shabbos does not take the chickens since they are low quality.
The news has reported many times stacks of black garbage bags full of dead chicken carcasses found at the garbage dump over YT.
Call Beis Hatavishil and find out if they're getting the chickens.


Oy!
http://newjersey.news12.com/st.....ition
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amother




Smokey


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 1:12 pm
I actually take care of one of the kaparos places the chickens are handled with care in hot days they get water and watered. No one starved them the chickens get brought within an hour of opening and picked up right when done they are taken right away to the slaughterhouse where they are slaughtered that night. Chickens living in crates are fine for them but you may not overfill them. A chicken can die but usually because it wasn’t a good chicken. If a chicken is not acting right then it’s not used for kaparos. The 3 hours of chaos you see makes u think they are abused etc but usually they aren’t at all it’s just chaotic, so your not realizing what was done with them before and after.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 1:30 pm
All you have done is convince me to look into going vegan.
I wasn’t aware, and it does upset me that the food industry is guilty of this as well.
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amother




Jetblack


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 3:41 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
All you have done is convince me to look into going vegan.
I wasn’t aware, and it does upset me that the food industry is guilty of this as well.


It isn't necessary to go vegan, but rather look for and support (I.e.) but animal products that have been treated more fairly. If we support it demand will go up and hopefully cruelty would be less widespread (sigh in the ideal world)
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amother




Emerald


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 3:49 pm
We do kapporot with chickens. I keep hearing these claims that the chickens are being thrown out. So every year I stand by the shochet and ask, "ARE YOU SURE THESE CHICKENS ARE BEING DONATED AND WILL BE EATEN?" and every year they assure me yes, they will feed the poor. Are you telling me these shochets are lying to me on erev YK???

The treatment of the birds is another story all-together. It is very upsetting to me, but as previous poster mentioned, this is not unique to kapporot. This is the industry. This is what we're eating! I try to buy from places like KOL and Grow & Behold and hope with the crazy prices I am supporting kindness to these animals and also feeding my family healthier, non-stressed-out animals.

I am going to look into purchasing our own chickens from a farm next year as someone suggested. I really cry at kapporot, but this is our tradition and we wont be switching to money.
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Mama Bear




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 3:59 pm
In Monsey I saw one kaporos place had little plastic baskets into which they put the chickens before swinging them. This ensured they werent being handled by their wings. I liked that.
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