Poor middle class | Imamother

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Oct 04 2019, 7:27 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

I was just in the "frum" shoe store and saw a bubby buying shoes for her toddler granddaughter. Someone asked if the baby's mother liked the shoes and the bubby laughed and said that if she pays for them, she's the one who gets to choose what they look like.

That kind of changed my perspective a bit!

It is such a bracha to be able to make your own choices. OP, perhaps later in life your trajectory will change a bit, and you will have more wiggle room to afford luxuries and different opportunities that people with benefits will never be able to afford.

Just keep davening and not thinking too hard about other people's cheshbonos. IYH things should improve for you!!

Just saying I wish we had a rich bubby. I don’t care what style are the shoes LOL

amother

Cobalt

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 4:07 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My husband and I work so hard and BH make a very nice income. We only have enough for basics like mortgage, utilities, food, tuition.
Just venting, because it's very tough to see all these people on benefits that buy these expensive strollers, clothing etc. Id love to buy my kids nice shabbos shoes and accessories, which to most isn't considered a luxury, bit for now going to just stick with the cheap $20 Target type shoes.

You don't know whether those people are up to their eyes in debt, receiving tzedaka, etc.

Can I suggest you look into Dave Ramsey?

amother

Burlywood

Sat, Oct 05 2019, 9:14 pm

dankbar wrote:

I don't think the $20 headbands bought locally are any better than the $2 ones from Ali.
I don't think the $100 shabbos dresses for young kids are better quality then the $20 ones bought in dept stores. I personally don't think it's neccassary to spend that.

There's someone who sells headbands near me, and she buys all the accessories from Ali and then puts them together and sells for $20.

amother

Slateblue

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 12:19 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

You made buying a home your priority
Which was smart because it’s something of value, that builds equity, and can be handed down. Strollers, clothing wigs, not.
But that’s what is a priority for them.

I know very wealthy ppl that only shop in thrift stores. And although I wouldn’t announce it pubicly, she did, at her own son’s bar mitzvah. She spent $20 on her dress, including buying extra trims and stuff. And, it looked at least $300.
I know very wealthy ppl who eat and dress very simple. But they have a luxury home, and own luxury real estate that brings nice income.
They like to spend on leaving an inheritance of value to their grandkids, and they splurge on exotic vacations.
It all depends on what your priorities are.

This.

It's Ghetto mentality. Only in the ghetto, you see the souped up cars, and their version of designer, like pricey sneakers, etc.

It's people making a choice to spend on relatively small ticket items that carry status, with the result that they won't ever be able to actually save up enough to improve. They make this choice because they don't think real change is possible.

amother

Silver

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 1:00 am

1. Most ppl I know on benefits don't own a home, so yes, the middle class has it tough, but they do have more stability.
2.Remember that this is your choice. You can also stop working, and if you have a nice amount of kids, most likely be eligible for benefits. Why begrudge them?
3. I don't think jews spend more money than secular; they do spend it very differently. Most of those 'matching families and bugagoos' don't eat out or buy takeout all the time; they don't spend on entertainment; they don't travel to exotic places, etc.
4. Most non-jews dont notice our designer clothes or that we'll wearing expensive clothes, just like I wouldn't know a designer short-sleeved t-shirt from a $5 one. Most of what we wear looks expensive to them because of the classy look long sleeves/skirts etc. has.
5. I don't have benefits, and I work F/t, DH is in kollel, so no real salary there and I do not have supporting wealthy parents, and I very happily buy ali or cheap amazon stuff, and even more happily take hand me downs and use things over and over again from year to year. My current stroller is app $30 from amazon (and the one before was a hand me down, and the one before was a gift that lasted over 10 yrs). HOWEVER, in the greater scheme of things, if I'd buy a bugaboo that would last me 10 years (That's $100 a year), or spend another little bit on pricier clothing, it wouldn't set me back that much. Same for others who have benefits, yet budged things differently than you.

imorethanamother

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 1:06 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

See, I don't see it that way. I think everyone who spends so much money on kids clothes and shabbos shoes are crazy! I love Target! I love Payless! (so sad that place is gone). If my kids come to me and ask me for expensive clothes or shoes, I tell them no. I was told no when I was growing up, because my parents worked really really hard, and we could afford clothes from Loehmann's and TJ Maxx and Marshalls. And you know what? It didn't scar me. It didn't even bother me! Why would it? I looked good, I felt good because not spending so much money makes everyone happy (even rich people love bargains!), and when things wore out or were accidentally ruined, we were able to get more things without crying over the other ones.

I think that the sooner you get your kids used to non-luxury brands, and that their lives are perfectly wonderful because they look beautiful no matter what, the better those kids' lives are going to be. They're not going to spend their adulthood looking at the outfit the other woman is wearing, and where can they get the next ridiculous Loubouton shoes.

And strollers?? Really? You use them for a short amount of time, and no matter how much you spend, they get gross and you need to throw them away. I got my UppaBaby on craigslist, because I really wanted a bassinet, and I paid a fraction. People are desperate to sell them - if it really matters to you, maybe look into those?

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 1:09 am

I think most of the public can recognize expensive strollers and jewellery. So if you are going to pick up benefits, it would behoove you to leave all that home.

Nobody is going to say, 'oh, probably her mother bought her that buggy, and she still deserves food stamps.' Because if her mother had money to buy her an expensive buggy, she should have given her the money for food.

I do think it's chillul hashem to pick up benefits in expensive attire. Nobody else is going in diamonds and bugaboos.

imorethanamother

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 1:14 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

This is the most insightful thing I've ever read on Imamother. Genius.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 5:44 am

sarahmalka wrote:

I'm with you OP. The middle class is struggling across the board in the USA, whether Jewish or not, religious or not. I am middle class. I try hard to make it a point to not look at other people's money or make any assumptions bc I have been on the receiving end of that... and I am clueless about name- brands and that kind of thing. But I do know I think twice about every doctor's visit I schedule bc of our high deductible and co-pays, there have been times when I probably should have gone to urgent care or the ER but decided against it, simply because of the insane costs, whereas if we qualified for Medicaid I would not hesitate. Even right now I'm ignoring a health issue bc we don't have the extra $300 it would cost to see a specialist, on top of our regular monthly bills of mortgage, utilities, insurance, and tuition. But my friends on assistance or disability don't think twice about medical bills. I also have the unfortunate inside information from two friends who get disability and other government assistance that they davka DON'T look for more work even though they're capable bc they don't want to lose the benefits. I have been a liberal Democrat my whole adult life but things like this drive me bananas and make me start to buy into more of the right wing rhetoric.

Same here. Applause

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 6:14 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I’m feeling like I’m missing something. I do not believe there are many cash paying jobs out there. That means that potentially, govt assistance is their only income? And even if they have ten kids and get a lot, it’s not enough to buy fancy shoes. So the question is if there are parents or in laws helping (eg for the stroller) or if they are in massive debt. I honestly get shocked over and over again how many people I thought were doing awesome based on how they spend only to find out they are in debt. I can agree though that I do remember noticing in the bakery that people who had food stamps (or whatever they are called today) would sometimes be buying a bunch of luxuries that I wouldn’t have cause I was paying out of pocket.

Many people get Yom Tov vouchers to local stores. Their kids are wearing $100 Shabbos shoes while my kids have zara
I do have to remind myself to be greatful to be on the giving end. But it’s hard.
Yes I own my house but it’s tiny (2 bedroom big family) compared to all other homes. It is hard when others have 4-5 bedroom subsidized homes - (they own for the fraction of the cost of mine). Or larger homes they rent for free.
It is hard to live so poorly and work
So hard. I just try to count my blessings.

southernbubby

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 7:52 am

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

The shul that I davened in yesterday that gave vouchers didn't sound like it was connected to being in klei kodesh so I imagine that the lower middle class was probably eligible for it.
Some people do achieve "the look" by putting a lot of effort into running after deals such as shopping in the Catskills at the end of summer when the stores were closing for the year.
There are a lot of cash and carry sales that I see advertised that take place in halls rather than stores and I imagine that you have to be willing to deal with the crowds of fellow bargain shoppers.
People also post bargains on social media.
Frum stores do have some great end of the season deals that are higher prices than Target but much less than the going rate.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 8:18 am

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

seriously, how do you know what goes on in their lives? Someone recently told me how everyone thinks she has money and proceeded to tell me details. I was stunned because regretfully I also thought that both sets of parents we’re comfortable and helping. I’m not sure why she opened up to me but it changed my outlook.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 8:25 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

They are family.

If someone buys an affordable housing development home you know how much they pay.

If people learn in certain yeshivas they get set vouchers.

If people are on Medicaid they don’t pay copays.

These things aren’t secret.

However the people I know aren’t dripping in jewelry or pushing new or expensive strollers. (Not as common in yeshivish communities on programs).

I personally don’t know anyone abusing programs. It’s all 100% honest - no secret cash under the table.

It’s just hard when benefits seem to over run earnings.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Oct 06 2019, 8:39 am

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

Thank You for explaining. I would live to know where these houses are.