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To tell brother not to bring muktzeh
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 10:10 am
It's totally possible your brother was unaware that his son grabbed a muktza toy before he hopped into the car. Kids stuff all sorts of things into their pockets.
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 11:13 am
princessleah wrote:
Can you clarify something— you are allowing him to drive over on Shabbat and then upset about a muktzah toy?
He may be getting mixed messages

I don't "let" him do anything. when I have a simcha and need to invite for shabbos, I make sure there's room for his family in my home, even if it means sending some of my kids away to sleep by others because no one tolorate a people who mechallel shabbos as guests even in payed basements.
It's hard to just say "don't come anymore" we've always been close. Suddenly they decided to go otd.
It's very sensitive because I love the idea to tell my son how lucky he is but at the same time if someone will put a kappel on my nephew his parents will get very upset. IDK
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 11:19 am
DrMom wrote:
It's totally possible your brother was unaware that his son grabbed a muktza toy before he hopped into the car. Kids stuff all sorts of things into their pockets.

Could be. But when he brings them should make sure they don't, no?
I spoke to him about it. I hope he understood his responsibilities in the case for next time. It was a very matter fact talk. I am not emotional about it anymore. Years ago when they broke it to me that they are off I cried and was very angry etc.
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amother




Yellow


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 11:36 am
OP, as hard as it is to say "don't come anymore", it will come to a point where you will have to. You can't have them drive over on shabbos when you're raising a frum family. As the kids grow older, they won't care about how "lucky" they are to be growing up Frum and keeping shabbos, and it just sends mixed messages to the kids.
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hesha




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 12:14 pm
super tough situation. if you're already going to be having the convo with him about muktzah, maybe throw in that if he could please park some blocks down and walk over, you would really appreciate it so as to not confuse your kids.
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chestnut




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 12:27 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
OP, as hard as it is to say "don't come anymore", it will come to a point where you will have to. You can't have them drive over on shabbos when you're raising a frum family. As the kids grow older, they won't care about how "lucky" they are to be growing up Frum and keeping shabbos, and it just sends mixed messages to the kids.

What do you think BT families do? Not having their families join them for shabbos/YT because of driving?
The only thing I can see is asking them to park a bit further, so that OPs kids don't feel uncomfortable with their own friends when they're older
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amother




Yellow


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 12:29 pm
Chestnut, I'm sure most BT families don't allow chillul shabbos in their home. And if their families aren't frum, why would they come for shabbos and yom tov?
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amother




Wheat


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 12:46 pm
My parents are Baalei tshuva and my husband is a Baal tshuva. The way I was raised and the way I'm raising my kids is simply that in our house you follow our rules. Just like in your house I need to take off my shoes at the front door or keep the blinds closed, in my house on shabbos we don't use our phones etc. When we were little there was never an issue of "they're so lucky they can drive on shabbos" because our house was a happy and warm place on shabbos so we didn't feel that anything was missing. If we ever asked why our relatives were doing something that we don't, my mother simply said "because we don't do that" and it really wasn't a big deal. Obviously if a kid asks tons of questions, sitting them down and explaining how Hashem gave us Torah and we're so lucky to live a Torah'dig life is a good conversation to have. But no need to draw attention to things that the kids may just ignore
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nicole81




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 12:58 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Chestnut, I'm sure most BT families don't allow chillul shabbos in their home. And if their families aren't frum, why would they come for shabbos and yom tov?


My non-frum family loves to come for shabbat and yom tov, because they have their own connections to judaism, and enjoy the traditional meals and relaxing time and space to spend with us and the grandkids/nieces/nephews.

Funny enough, I have a hard time understanding why non frum members *wouldn't* want to spend this time with their observant close family. Weekdays are for school and work, and Sundays are for errands, family trips, and also school. I can't imagine a better time to connect than over shabbat.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 1:57 pm
Not to derail the thread, but I’m a BT and I was told by my rabbi that I can’t invite non frum family for shabbos, yt if I know it will cause them to drive. I realize everyone follows their own rabbi, but I’m surprised that some people do differently.

Op, it’s good that you had a conversation with your brother. Dynamics in this situation can be so tricky.
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chestnut




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 2:04 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Chestnut, I'm sure most BT families don't allow chillul shabbos in their home. And if their families aren't frum, why would they come for shabbos and yom tov?

1. Not everyone will dictate their parents/siblings what to do. For some, having relationships with them and hostinf them on rosh Hashanah or pesach is more important
2. I was talking about driving, not doing muktzah in the house
3. Even with muktzah, kids learn very quick that the family isn't frum and that's what they do. We're different
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chestnut




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 2:06 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
Not to derail the thread, but I’m a BT and I was told by my rabbi that I can’t invite non frum family for shabbos, yt if I know it will cause them to drive. I realize everyone follows their own rabbi, but I’m surprised that some people do differently.

Op, it’s good that you had a conversation with your brother. Dynamics in this situation can be so tricky.

Some rabbis say that you can offer them to sleep over, but if they decide to drive, it's on them
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maliza




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 5:00 pm
your brother, though no longer observant, still wants to connect to Shabbos. Shabbos has good memories for him that he wants his own children to experience!

you can approach this as an opportunity to be mechanech the children about the kedusha of shabbos, and to teach your own children that this is a real life "na'aseh v'nishmah" moment - although difficult to refrain from something more fun and appealing, we do so to show our love to Hashem. also, by maintaining contact, you are building relationships and perhaps through kiruv, "saving" precious neshamas simply by making Shabbos appealing, warm and loving. (many a baal teshuvah has said Shabbos food and family warmth was the initial attraction for them.)

how to address the mechilas Shabbos: there is actually a movement amongst non-Jews and secular Jews to practice "Shabbat." electronics are not used one day a week, and meals are family-oriented. You can use this an offering to your brother to not only experience Shabbos in its true form while visiting you, but to bond with his children and extended family, and the young cousins to one another through play and good conversation. no electronics! no muktseh! young children are absolutely able to understand the concept and application thereof.

you may have to work a bit to put together interesting "entertainment" while at the Shabbos table, and after. Trivia games, topics, projects to prepare for the following Shabbos get-together, etc... (they don't always have to be parsha-related; you want those children to want to come to you for Shabbos!). my own children used to put on a skit each Shabbos night. They had great fun preparing (I had a great box of costumes and props available (non-muktseh)and the rest of us enjoyed the entertainment.) Reciting poetry, having a spelling bee, singing, etc.... the non-frum children can recite a lesson from school, may want to share what they know about parsha, (and maybe you could give them a children's chumash, and prepare questions for them to look up - they can even use their device during the week to prepare say, 3 good and challenging questions.

its almost Yom Kippur - be certain you have explored all options to be m'karev your brother and his family, (while protecting your own), and have availed yourself of the many teaching opportunities for both the frum young and the non-frum, before telling them not to come any longer for Shabbos.

a good g'bentched year for all!
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 5:22 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
Not to derail the thread, but I’m a BT and I was told by my rabbi that I can’t invite non frum family for shabbos, yt if I know it will cause them to drive. I realize everyone follows their own rabbi, but I’m surprised that some people do differently.

Op, it’s good that you had a conversation with your brother. Dynamics in this situation can be so tricky.

It's very sticky. And I never invite for shabbos unless I have a room to offer them to stay the whole shabbos. Yesterday I didn't even invite. Many times they just show up. I usually have enough chulent, and even if not, they are just happy to be here. Yellow, It looks very good on paper to not allow chillul shabbos at home, but in reality it's so much more sticky than that.
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amother




Papaya


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 5:28 pm
exactly Op and it sounds like you are doing a really good job of walking that fine line.

Protecting our own children, the kedusha in our home, and the relationships of those we love in our lives who are not yet or not yet again frum.


Gmar chasima Tovah
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princessleah




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 06 2019, 9:12 pm
When I said mixed messages, I meant for your brother, not the kids.
You’re cool with him popping over by car (and I’m not judging that at all), so maybe he assumes you’re cool with the muktzah also?
Do your kids know how he gets there?

You can simply say to him something like “I’m so happy you guys come over to see us and I love spending time with you. When it’s shabbat I’d like to preserve a Shabbat observant atmosphere In our house.”

Would he be receptive to that or defensive?
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