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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions

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Ruchel

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 6:14 am

It always puzzles me "your son is worthy more" etc. Does that mean because some don't have an opportunity (say Jewish school), no child should? The parents do what they think is best.

amother

Lime

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 6:19 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I'm chareidi and I've lived in Israel for 15 years on a visa.
We did not make aliyah because originally we were only planning on coming for short term. If my sons want to join the army, they can, but it will be a choice that they make.

Do I believe that my son's life is more valuable than your son's? Chas v'sholom! I do not believe in mandatory draft for anyone and I believe that your son should have the same choice as my son.
I think the whole system is wrong and I know a few non-religious Israelis who made yeridah because of it.

Lovely idea. Alas, our enemies haven't yet gotten the memo that we all need to sit around singing kumbaya. So until then, somebody has to serve in the army. The question is, which somebody it's going to be.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 6:54 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I pay taxes. We encourage children to help out organizations, do chessed, things for the city.
I really dislike the phrase you use "to cheat the system". When the system was MADE one of the stipulations the gedolei yisroel said needs to be is that yeshiva bochurim don't go to the army. It's supposed to be a PART of the system.

We NEED their learning, it's a part of the system, and if you can't see that I can't make you see that. We live in a physical world where we can not see the effects in front of our eyes but we do need people learning we need the SAME AMOUNT of people learning as on the physical battlefield.

What makes our little army face so many wars in victory that seem impossible?

I feel like maybe you didn’t read what I wrote because actually specifically mentioned that I am not even talking about those that are learning full time, but rather like the OPs son, someone who wants to go to university and begin a career, not learning or serving in the army. What is your justification for that?

amother

Mustard

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:04 am

OP, your question is more complicated than that:
1. What high schools are there that are both compatible with a yeshivish hashkafa and still getting a secular education (but where the administration isn't encouraging army, but is preparing students for bagruyot)
2. What college or certification programs are there for students who don't do army, want a yeshivish/Charedi environment, and work with students coming for whatever high school background your son will have? Machon Lev is probably a good option for this.
3. How will your son fair on the professional job market without serving in the army (many employers want and expect army service)?

Skipping army service is straight forward- your son will need to be in yeshiva after high school until he gets married and possibly has a baby. (I'll save a discussion of the ethics of this for a different time.)

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:53 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Which somebody it's going to be, should be: those who want to serve.
But just because that is unfortunately not the reality does not mean I am doing anything wrong by making sure my child is not forced into it.

Iymnok

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:15 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

There has been talk of limiting the draft for a while now. There are more draftees than personnel needed. Too much manpower can get expensive. It’s a very politically loaded topic.

amother

Navy

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:30 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Businessman, computers, engineers, architecture, nursing, YES.
To become a doctor...no.

I don't think she means an engineer... unleas the requirements are different in Israel than the US... as in.. more "difficult" than medicine.

amother

Lime

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:47 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Very few people want to serve. It's hard work, and puts your life at risk. Since a volunteer army won't meet the needs of the country, there's a draft.

I think the tax system is unfair. Should I not pay my taxes because I don't like how they are distributed, or should I pay my share because I'm a citizen? In your scenario, only those who approve of the budget should pay taxes.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 8:59 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

This.
My sons are/were in the army. One of them really, really, really didn't want to go. He was jealous of his sisters who got an automatic ptor as religious girls, and thought they were 'freyeriot' for signing up for 2 years of sherut leumi of their own volition.

If he could have gotten out of the army (without lying and pretending he had psychiatric issues or something), he would have.

It is ridiculous to say that only those who want should serve. Today, we are no longer in the idealistic days of yore (if ever they truly existed). People are looking out for their own futures, including most 18 year old boys. If you tell them to choose, within 5 years I bet only 10% will go to the draft.

Look at countries where the draft is optional, like the States or Canada. They even get a real salary there. And still only a tiny minority chooses to go.

That's what would happen in Israel if it were optional.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:07 am

LovesHashem wrote:

The stipulation was created in 1949. For 400 pupils! 400. That is it. No one imagined that a huge percentage of the population would take advantage of this ptor.

David Ben Gurion regretted giving this ptor 20 years later, especially in light of the fact that some charedim had been involved in riots. He says that regardless of the riots, maybe the whole ptor was a mistake:

Ben-Gurion writes: "Perhaps there is reason to revisit the question of men in
yeshivas, if they actually do need to be exempt from their army obligation." The
haredi establishment rejected service in small numbers in 1949, allowing a
small number from their community to study full-time in yeshiva. The agreement
was established based on the assumption that students of high level yeshivot
would be exempt from the military as long as they committed themselves to fulltime Torah learning and in no other business, even other educational or
voluntary pursuits. These yeshiva students embraced the idea that "His Torah is
his art". In 1948, there were 400 such students learning in yeshivot.

"I released these men from their obligation to serve the army. Although I made
these decision when the numbers were small, but they continue to multiply, and
in their unruliness, they are a danger to the honor of the country."

In his letter to Eshkol, Ben-Gurion writes "The wild behavior of these extremists
has crossed every boundary and I believe that I am in part responsible. I
released these men from their obligation to serve the army. Although I made
these decision when the numbers were small, but they continue to multiply, and
in their unruliness, they are a danger to the honor of the country."
Ben-Gurion continues: "I recommend that every boy in yeshiva age 18 and over
that is caught in these communities breaking the law, throwing stones,
disturbing the peace or committing other acts of violence and bullying, draft
them immediately into the military and have them serve just as all other young
people do--30 months--not in a religious position, but as a regular soldier. There
might be reason to investigate the question of all yeshiva students, if they truly
need exemptions from military service. But law breakers certainly do not
deserve this questionable privilege."

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:10 am

By the way, note this part of the original agreement:

The agreement was established based on the assumption that students of high level yeshivot
would be exempt from the military as long as they committed themselves to fulltime Torah learning and in no other business, even other educational or
voluntary pursuits. These yeshiva students embraced the idea that "His Torah is
his art".

The yeshiva students are supposed to be in full time yeshiva to get a ptor, not studying for a career.

Many secular or dati leumi boys would also like to start their career 3 years early.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:46 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

It's not the same scenario at all.
I pay taxes because it is the law.
I did not make aliyah because there is no law stating that I have to.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:52 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

There are a lot more full time learners now than there were in 1948 or 1967, and those were easily the most miraculous victories so far. Not to mention that it's currently being hazmanim, the kollelim are off, and the country doesn't seem to have collapsed. Can you imagine the army taking off ten weeks a year?

I'm a small person to decide such things. Our Rabbi says there's not enough learners and too many people in the army.

On the other hand I do want to say learning full time isn't for everyone and those who cannot should definitely use some of their time, and energy to give back to the medinah and their community in some way.

But even if my child was cut out to do service part time - my Rabbi says the environment just isn't good. The army is careless with it's religious workers, I mean how is it a "mistake" to feed thousands of young men food without proper hashgacha? And this happened more than once and it was claimed to be a mistake. There's not enough care to keep their spirituality going and it's not a good environment.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:53 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

It's not the same scenario at all.
I pay taxes because it is the law.
I did not make aliyah because there is no law stating that I have to.

Fine. But all those who are already citizens, should be serving.
If not, then maybe there is room for a ptor to study in yeshiva. IF the boy is actually really studying. That ptor is very controversial.

But a ptor to go study, or work, as some have said??? That is illegal and immoral unless it is offered to all citizens.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:01 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

They should learn full time until they reach the age it's not necessary.
The army isn't a good environment for frum Jews. If someone has trouble learning full time then he should go to a hesder yeshiva or a place that does army service part time in programming or something so that he doesn't get exposed to all the stuff out there.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:02 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Agreed
But isn't there a ptor for certain college students?

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:04 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I agree. A ptor to go study and work isn't fair.
I want to make that clear.
Many kids though do yeshiva morning and afternoon seder and will do college at night.
That I think is fine. College takes much much longer to do this way but it's how people juggle it with learning.

That's what my DH did. He studied photography twice a week in the late evening/night.

LovesHashem

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:06 pm

Iymnok wrote:

There has been talk of limiting the draft for a while now. There are more draftees than personnel needed. Too much manpower can get expensive. It’s a very politically loaded topic.

Yes; I've heard this too. Our Rabbi has told me that too; he works in many yeshivos and knows the system etc. I didn't want to mention it though because I don't really have a valid source and didn't want to get yelled at for not backing up my statements.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:21 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

Agreed
But isn't there a ptor for certain college students?

No.
Some college students studying for specific degrees can defer until they finish their degree. The army then often drafts them in units that make use of that degree.

But it's only for good students, and only for specific degrees (you can't get a deferment to study history of Mexico, for example).

And not only is it not a ptor, but usually they need to commit to a few EXTRA years of service. 5 instead of 3, etc.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:24 pm

Iymnok wrote:

There has been talk of limiting the draft for a while now. There are more draftees than personnel needed. Too much manpower can get expensive. It’s a very politically loaded topic.

If the draft is limited, it should be limited for all citizens equally.

They should come up with a strategy that lets all sectors enjoy a break from the draft.

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