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amother




Lime


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:24 am
LovesHashem wrote:
Yes; I've heard this too. Our Rabbi has told me that too; he works in many yeshivos and knows the system etc. I didn't want to mention it though because I don't really have a valid source and didn't want to get yelled at for not backing up my statements.


There's often talk about cutting back on the army bureaucracy. That has nothing to do with the draft.
There is a shortage of combat soldiers. The army needs more feet on the ground, not fewer.
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amother




Mustard


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:25 am
I want to emphasize that I know very little about this, but there is sherut ezrachi- civilian service- where it appears that Charedi boys can stay in a Charedi misgeret but still 'give back' as a civilian. Similar to sherut leumi.

Again, I know very little about this, who qualifies, how to apply, etc.
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amother




OP


Post  Fri, Oct 11 2019, 8:30 am
I refrained from posting again for a while because I really wanted to think about how to phrase what I want to say. I feel really distressed at apparently having offended people or even hurt your feelings. This was not at all my intention.

I don't think the majority of respondents quite got what I meant, and I think that's due to a lack of clarity on my part. I do want my sons to learn full-time. I do not want a ptor just to get out of serving. The examples I used were the Chofetz Chaim and the Rambam. I don't think most of us consider them "part-time learners." I understand we're not expecting my sons to become the Chofetz Chaim or the Rambam, but I do find their example inspiring and a good one to follow.

Many, many people, although it is difficult and often takes longer, work full time and go to college. I want my sons, if possible, to learn full-time and go to (religious) college. As I mentioned previously, we would be citizens. We would pay taxes. My husband is in Hatzalah and would continue this in Israel. My oldest son has expressed an interest in joining Hatzalah when he is old enough.

So here's the picture we have in mind (with input from my bechor, the only son old enough to tell us a mature idea of what he wants): Learning full or very nearly full time, studying part-time for a parnassah (and after studies are completed, using that time to work), saving lives through Hatzalah, and b'ezrat Hashem starting a Jewish family with the means to support themselves without being forced c'vs to take government benefits or tzedaka. I truly believe that every part of that picture would contribute greatly to Israeli society and do not think any Jewish boy is more important than another. Different boys are suited to contribute in different ways and this happens to be my family's path. If he really wanted to join the army, we would have that discussion, too. I'm very close to a family where the father wanted to join the army but his wife really, really needed him since she didn't speak Hebrew and they had a new baby, so he volunteered for the police for quite some time instead. I strongly feel that he fulfilled his obligation to the state.

I didn't want to cause any hurt feelings or machloket c'vs. That's why I specified that I wanted just to know if it's possible to follow our path there or if we need to either rethink our decision or adjust our expectations. I hope we can all be dan l'kaf zchut even if we've chosen different ways of serving Hashem and am Yisrael, and I fully respect those of you who have chosen differently and understand that you do what you feel is best. Each person is in a unique position and has to choose what works for them and their family based on daat Torah and individual circumstances. Shana tovah everyone!
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Oct 12 2019, 2:46 pm
OP I think you can move here. It's definitely doable.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sat, Oct 12 2019, 11:52 pm
Op, I don't know the legalities.

I do know that it is very difficult to study full time in yeshiva and study for a degree simultaneously. I don't know if it's even possible. Certainly I don't know of any programs that offer such a thing (and that are still recognised for the legal ptor).

Same with work - if someone is in yeshiva 6 days a week until six or seven pm, when would they work? I guess they could tutor a bit or something,but I got the impression you were hoping they would work at a proper job.

I don't see how it's possible on a practical level.

You might want to look into hesder programs.
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 2:19 am
I understand it would be difficult. My background is more that you learn full time (if that's where your talents and interests lie) and often have part-time work or school for career training until it's not practical or responsible parnassah-wise. The thing with this is that my brother, for example, had trouble transitioning to the world of work after learning for several years, and that was in the U.S.

I guess I wanted to know if someone in Israel would have the same opportunities job-wise after learning full time at least as long as he would have been in the army or if training and employment would be limited to certain fields. Thanks to everyone who gave info on the hesder program. Chag sameach!
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 2:46 am
I think he would have. As of late the government has been very into supporting the chareidim to learn a decent profession and integrate into society. They have been promoting ma y programs and have grants and subsidised things for both men and women. It's illegal to discriminate based on religious observance too.
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Rappel




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 3:02 am
I think you can find what you need here, OP. I also agree that it contributes more to the state if you raise a healthy family and generate earnings in the private sector, than if you serve as a jobnik in the IDF.

The way I see it, there are many paths open to your son. It's just a question of which one he prefers.

For a full time learner, there are many vocational training programs now. They're specifically geared toward haredi men. Most are structured around a learning schedule, and are designed to put someone who doesn't have a strong educational background, but does have a strong will and learning skills, on their feet.

The yeshiva ptor is very tricky right now because 1) it is a highly politicised topic right now and 2) there is a general perception that far more people are using the ptor than are actually learning full-time, so they've started checking more. #2 is partially true - it is EXTREMELY difficult to maintain the conditions of the ptor once you're already raising your family; I don't know anyone who actually stayed honest about it. And if they catch him dodging a yeshiva ptor (as opposed to any other), because it's such a hot topic right now, he will be drafted.

That's not the end of the world, btw. It happened to a friend of ours, whom had two kids and made documentaries for a living. After the one month of basic training, they assigned him to do films for the IDF. However, he also got permission to do his own work simultaneously, as he was the family breadwinner, and since the IDF barely had any work for him, he was able to do it all from his house, and simply had to periodically show up at his base and sign a paper saying that he did. That was his army service.

I also know many people whom were ptored without a second thought, but whom didn't go through the yeshiva. Some examples:
*One showed up for his physical wearing tallit and tefillin, explained that he wants the state to fall and replaced by a Davidic Kingdom, and that he will always listen to to his Rav over his commander. They had him out the door three same minute.
*One was in kollel when he was called up, but because he was arrested once at an anti-terror protest, he was automatically ptored.
*One didn't finish high school
*One was dyslexic. He desperately wanted to serve, and ended up doing National Service instead.
*One was celiac - the army marches on gluten and oil and coffee, btw.
*One was caught growing weed when he was 14, and his parents never paid to get his record wiped.
*One answered honestly when they asked what he thinks of Elor Azariya, that "he did the right thing." Automatic 22. He was rather miffed.
*One said, "I hate Arabs. When do I get my gun?"
*One was ideologically opposed to engaging with the state. They took him in for draft dodging, but he didn't like his roommate while he was awaiting trial, so he walked off base, and tremped home to Kiryat Arba that evening. The next morning, they phoned him, he calmly explained his reasoning, and they ptored him just to make things easier.

If your son does want to learn and serve, there are options too. For a jobnik position, there is a program called Shachar or Shacham, where haredi men learn together, daven together, and also learn and do tech work for their army service. If he wants combat, then I think hesder is a far more successful program than Nachal Haredi or mechina, and he'll be with the same group throughout his entire service. There are now workforce benefits given to anyone who serves in a combat unit, plus more jobs open to them (security Jobs are very easy to fit around a kollel schedule), so that may work for him.

If he does get a ptor, then he'll be able to go to college much sooner than if he has a yeshiva ptor, and that also has a myriad of options to choose from: technology, film, education, are just three I can think of off the top of my head.

Just so you know, he has options.

PS - if he's already 21 when he makes Aliyah, then the draft doesn't apply to him.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 3:44 am
Rappel wrote:
I think you can find what you need here, OP. I also agree that it contributes more to the state if you raise a healthy family and generate earnings in the private sector, than if you serve as a jobnik in the IDF.

.


Excuse me? The army needs jobniks. Just because it doesn't have the glory of being a combat soldier, doesn't mean it's not a crucial job. Nobody wants to be in charge of the storeroom, but if no one was there, there would be no army.

Why the contempt for jobniks? It's true that some people choose to be a jobnik on purpose, for all kinds of reasons. But I know many, many boys who did NOT want to be jobnikim and got stuck in a thankless, drab job for 3 years because that's what the army needs.

You don't think they are contributing enough to the state? The boys who are stuck for 3 years doing boring, monotonous, thankless jobs would love to go off instead and 'raise a healthy family and generate earnings in the private sector'. But it's not an option.

The healthy family and earning will wait until they get released. Meanwhile, it would be appropriate if you showed a bit more respect towards jobnikim, who are doing their job even if it's not a dream job.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 3:48 am
I agree with Rappel that it's pretty easy to get out of the army if you come off as unstable or suicidal or extremist in your army interview.

The IDF doesn't want to take any chances. If you say you admire Baruch Goldstein, you can be pretty sure you will get a ptor.

I don't think it's a respectable or moral way to get a ptor, and most guys balk at that kind of pretense. Also not everyone wants it listed on their private file that they are sympathetic to terrorists or whatever. But it's been done.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 3:51 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I understand it would be difficult. My background is more that you learn full time (if that's where your talents and interests lie) and often have part-time work or school for career training


But again - how, in practical terms? Learning full time usually means till 9 pm. But let's say the boy gets into a program until 6 or 7 pm. What college offers courses after 7 pm? You might be able to find one suitable course a semester, which means it would take years and years to graduate.
I also don't know of any vocational programs that run so late. Maybe from 4 or 5 pm, not from 7 pm. And if you are only learning till 4 pm, you aren't learning full time. Not full time enough to get a ptor, in any case.
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Rappel




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 4:03 am
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
.

I don't think it's a respectable or moral way to get a ptor, and most guys balk at that kind of pretense.


You're assuming it's a pretense. Smile The guy I know who came in wearing tefillin wears them all day. He wears a portable tallit, kind of like white wooden pashmina, while he's working throughout the day. He was being perfectly earnest, and honest.
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Rappel




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 4:06 am
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
Excuse me? The army needs jobniks. Just because it doesn't have the glory of being a combat soldier, doesn't mean it's not a crucial job. Nobody wants to be in charge of the storeroom, but if no one was there, there would be no army.

Why the contempt for jobniks?


I have no contempt for jobniks. But there are way more personnel drafted than the IDF needs, and everyone knows it. It's costing the country huge resources just to train and occupy tens of thousands of extra personnel, and they're doing their public sector best to cut it down while keeping everyone happy - not an easy feat.

There is a shortage of combat soldiers, or I would have generalized my statement further.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 4:10 am
Rappel wrote:
I have no contempt for jobniks. But there are way more personnel drafted than the IDF needs, and everyone knows it. It's costing the country huge resources just to train and occupy tens of thousands of extra personnel, and they're doing their public sector best to cut it down while keeping everyone happy - not an easy feat.

There is a shortage of combat soldiers, or I would have generalized my statement further.


It sounded as if you were belittling the contribution of jobniks.

I don't know the details of the army's personnel, surplus or not. But as long as the draft is mandatory, it is not moral to make the decision that 'I will contribute more by raising a family and making money'. Which is what you said. Because there are thousands of young men who would also like to do that, but they are following the law.
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Rappel




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 4:24 am
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
It sounded as if you were belittling the contribution of jobniks.

I don't know the details of the army's personnel, surplus or not. But as long as the draft is mandatory, it is not moral to make the decision that 'I will contribute more by raising a family and making money'. Which is what you said. Because there are thousands of young men who would also like to do that, but they are following the law.


Hello! I'm the wife of an ex-jobnik, who followed the law. He did his service, and then continued on to be a very hard-working father, husband, and member of his community. No regrets on anyone's part.

And I can tell you, the army didn't need him. He did his work, but they placed him at a pointless, unnecessary task, since they didn't have any use for him. And there thousands more like him.

Many argue that the military allows us to have a huge percentage of our population battle-ready. But as you rightly said, no one needs to spend 3 years at a desk to be battle ready. With 120,000 youths turning 18 every year, the draft would have been reduced, and perhaps even cancelled, long ago if there weren't sectoral politics involved (Haredim! Women! The Dati are taking over the IDF! It's not fair!).
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 5:05 am
Rappel wrote:
Hello! I'm the wife of an ex-jobnik, who followed the law. He did his service, and then continued on to be a very hard-working father, husband, and member of his community. No regrets on anyone's part.

And I can tell you, the army didn't need him. He did his work, but they placed him at a pointless, unnecessary task, since they didn't have any use for him. And there thousands more like him.

Many argue that the military allows us to have a huge percentage of our population battle-ready. But as you rightly said, no one needs to spend 3 years at a desk to be battle ready. With 120,000 youths turning 18 every year, the draft would have been reduced, and perhaps even cancelled, long ago if there weren't sectoral politics involved (Haredim! Women! The Dati are taking over the IDF! It's not fair!).


Maybe the draft would have been reduced. Who knows.
But of course politics is involved. Because it's not fair that one sector get a ptor (not talking about yeshivas here) and the other sector doesnt.
And of course, there is the fear that if 60% of the population gets a ptor, it will cease to be the people's army, and people will cease to care. Just like people dont spend their days and nights worried about Sderot, because they dont know anyone there.

So as long as everyone is drafted, every soldier deserves the same respect. Everyone has other things they could be doing for 3 years .
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SacN




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 7:01 am
Quote:

There's often talk about cutting back on the army bureaucracy. That has nothing to do with the draft.
There is a shortage of combat soldiers. The army needs more feet on the ground, not fewer.


It does need more combat solders. And more people honestly showing up for miluim.

And fewer people serving by playing basketball and bicycling (like two of my secular coworkers), and getting out of miluim by sending in friends injury paperwork.
It needs an incentive based registration, with a (decent) salary, free university, preferential mortgage rates and lower down payment requirements(!) , Keren hishalmut, and national service options for every sector (not just dati women, charedi men and Arab men.). It needs to be apolitical, and have better PR and accommodations for minority groups.

I know enough olim and datlashim who wanted to serve but were turned away and had to fight to get in because they were "too old" at the ripe old age of 21 (but they try to draft charedim until 26....), or too "under educated" (but they really need all those Yeshiva boys) to believe that the fight to draft charedim is much more than just a fight for popularity and public regard.

Should charedim serve the country? Yes. Should children not suited to combat be forced in from any sector? No.
There should be better options across the bored. The incentives should be much higher for combat, and the PR needs to show everyone: this is your opportunity to make your future.

Instead, let's serve by playing basketball, guitar. And blame the charedim.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 7:10 am
SacN wrote:
Quote:

There's often talk about cutting back on the army bureaucracy. That has nothing to do with the draft.
There is a shortage of combat soldiers. The army needs more feet on the ground, not fewer.


It does need more combat solders. And more people honestly showing up for miluim.

And fewer people serving by playing basketball and bicycling (like two of my secular coworkers), and getting out of miluim by sending in friends injury paperwork.
It needs an incentive based registration, with a (decent) salary, free university, preferential mortgage rates and lower down payment requirements(!) , Keren hishalmut, and national service options for every sector (not just dati women, charedi men and Arab men.). It needs to be apolitical, and have better PR and accommodations for minority groups.

I know enough olim and datlashim who wanted to serve but were turned away and had to fight to get in because they were "too old" at the ripe old age of 21 (but they try to draft charedim until 26....), or too "under educated" (but they really need all those Yeshiva boys) to believe that the fight to draft charedim is much more than just a fight for popularity and public regard.

Should charedim serve the country? Yes. Should children not suited to combat be forced in from any sector? No.
There should be better options across the bored. The incentives should be much higher for combat, and the PR needs to show everyone: this is your opportunity to make your future.

Instead, let's serve by playing basketball, guitar. And blame the charedim.


As the mother of several kids in the army, and by observing the many, many friends of my children, I can tell you that most people are not playing guitar in the army. Sure, there are a select few that get to represent Israel in sports, or go to גלי צהל and play music. But they are few and far between.
Most kids spend three years working very hard, sometimes at something they really wanted to do, and sometimes at something they dislike.
I agree with you in principle though. I dislike the uniformity expected of every 18 year old. I dislike the way teens who cannot serve for one reason or another get looked down upon. I think it would be great to have an incentive based registration.

The big minus, however, would be that people would distance themselves from the army. And it would become an army of 'poor people' who need the incentives. The well off would go straight to university. It would no longer be an army that embraces all socio-economic strata, which is one of the unifying aspects of the army today.

(BTW, the army already does offer at least 20K in free tuition, and points you can use to lower mortgage.)
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Aylat




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 7:20 am
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:


Signed,
A yoredet (as a child) that would love to come back. Is forever grateful to chayalim but follows rabbanim that hold women may never serve in an army.


Religious women never have to serve in the army or even do sherut leumi. It's very easy to get a ptor.
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amother




Salmon


Post  Sun, Oct 13 2019, 7:22 am
Aylat wrote:
Religious women never have to serve in the army or even do sherut leumi. It's very easy to get a ptor.


Agreed. Takes 10 min. Given automatically if you are religious.
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