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Measles Complications from this recent outbreak.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 10:29 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I think that most VPDs have had some deaths and disabilities attributed to them, even if the victims were fetuses.
I do agree with you, however, that there is no connection between how someone reacts to an illness and how their bodies assimilate and process a vaccine.

There is risk of death in every illness in theory. We just "fear" VPD because pharma wants us to. The DOH in I forget which city was in the news recently said that everyone should get varicella because it can be fatal. Soon the younger generation will start to believe that and have no idea how benign it truly is. Ahhhh chicken pox. Help.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 10:37 pm
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
Here's the thing: nobody knows in advance that their kid is going to be the one to react this way. So you want to warn people that this is something that could really happen, even though the doctors don't tell you it could. And it changes the whole equation. For everybody.


Unfortunately those who want to warn people often troll anyone who advocates vaccines for any reason. They don't just warn for the possible protection of those who may not know; they have people who do nothing else all day but troll and bully people who lost family members to the flu and are encouraging vaccines. Facebook policy is to let people state their opinions but Facebook doesn't promote anti-vax groups. I guess that their warnings are not what anyone views as warnings.
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amother




Slateblue
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:01 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Unfortunately those who want to warn people often troll anyone who advocates vaccines for any reason. They don't just warn for the possible protection of those who may not know; they have people who do nothing else all day but troll and bully people who lost family members to the flu and are encouraging vaccines. Facebook policy is to let people state their opinions but Facebook doesn't promote anti-vax groups. I guess that their warnings are not what anyone views as warnings.
I doubt this woman is no facebook trolling ppl.
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tryinghard




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:03 pm
southernbubby wrote:
But then the reverse logic would be that people who die of measles would have died from the MMR because measles in any form is fatal to that person.


Maybe, but unlikely because the logic of the theory is that the disease produces similar but even more severe symptoms. But regardless, my example was just to illustrate why her argument doesn’t DISPROVE the theory. As I said, I have never heard the theory before tonight, nor do I find it overly convincing.
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amother




Slateblue
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:08 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
I’ve never had a pediatrician tell me there are no side affects. (Effects?) I do my research and I also discuss each vaccine with my pediatrician. I space them out, and only do one at a time. Nothing has changed for me.
If your pediatrician told you with a straight face that the vaccine he is about to administer may cause death, and in fact just yesterday he had a little boy in his office who got a vaccine and died a few hours later, would you still give it?
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amother




Slateblue
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:16 pm
tryinghard wrote:
Maybe, but unlikely because the logic of the theory is that the disease produces similar but even more severe symptoms. But regardless, my example was just to illustrate why her argument doesn’t DISPROVE the theory. As I said, I have never heard the theory before tonight, nor do I find it overly convincing.
Sounds like you're assuming the reason ppl react badly to a vaccine is because of the antigens it contains. Like an allergic reaction to the virus. It's generally nothing like this. The reasons ppl react to vaccines has little to do with the way their body fights illnesses. Kids don't get "sick" from vaccines because of the pathogen it contains. [ok, well sometimes they do, but that still doesn't mean they would get sicker from the actual illness, because vaccines actually suppress a full proper immune response cellular and humoral, while the wild pathogen encourages a full, proper response, but all this is beyond the scope of this post and this forum] Say child a gets vaccine a and has a bad reaction, so mom no longer vaxxes siblings with vaccine a and they all catch disease a and do fine. And her neighbors and sisters and friends kids also get disease a and are fine. And some other neighbor, sisters, cousins kid gets vaccine a, and reports a similar bad reaction. Isn't it logical for her to assume that child a would have also done okay with disease a? of course there's no way to know without a doubt, but this line of thinking sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:26 pm
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
If your pediatrician told you with a straight face that the vaccine he is about to administer may cause death, and in fact just yesterday he had a little boy in his office who got a vaccine and died a few hours later, would you still give it?


I wonder what percentage of doctors lose patients because they were vaccinated to death.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:43 pm
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
If your pediatrician told you with a straight face that the vaccine he is about to administer may cause death, and in fact just yesterday he had a little boy in his office who got a vaccine and died a few hours later, would you still give it?

I can’t tell you because, thank god, I have never been in that position. I don’t know what I would do. More likely, the discussion would turn to

*is there anything in my child’s history that would lead the doc to believe that my child is at higher than typical risk of having a reaction?
*what were the surrounding circumstances with this child’s death?
*what would be the pros and cons of delaying the vaccination for a little bit?
* is this a routine vaccine, or am I vaccinating early because of an outbreak?

I don’t understand people who don’t trust their doctors. If you think your doctor would mislead you, GO TO A DIFFERENT DOCTOR!!
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 24 2019, 11:51 pm
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
There is risk of death in every illness in theory. We just "fear" VPD because pharma wants us to. The DOH in I forget which city was in the news recently said that everyone should get varicella because it can be fatal. Soon the younger generation will start to believe that and have no idea how benign it truly is. Ahhhh chicken pox. Help.


Personally I fear these diseases because they were killers in our family histories.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:10 am
southernbubby wrote:
Personally I fear these diseases because they were killers in our family histories.

Do you feel it would still be deadly in 2019?
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:17 am
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
Do you feel it would still be deadly in 2019?

Polio? Definitely.
Measles? Yup, if enough people contracted it and there weren't enough hospital beds/ if enough people contracted it and there weren't enough funds to cover their hospitalizations - people would start to die at the usual rates. A 1 in 1000 death rate is sheer privilege.

Chickenpox? No. We were just talking with a doctor friend yesterday and she agreed that the chickenpox vaccine makes stupid people stupider. It was created to prevent those who suffer complications and the rare person who dies from suffering complications and dying. It doesn't even prevent the disease - it just prevents the complications. But it's used by anti-vaxxers as "proof" that "all VPDs" are benign just like chickenpox is.
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:27 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
Sounds like you're assuming the reason ppl react badly to a vaccine is because of the antigens it contains. Like an allergic reaction to the virus. It's generally nothing like this. The reasons ppl react to vaccines has little to do with the way their body fights illnesses. Kids don't get "sick" from vaccines because of the pathogen it contains. [ok, well sometimes they do, but that still doesn't mean they would get sicker from the actual illness, because vaccines actually suppress a full proper immune response cellular and humoral, while the wild pathogen encourages a full, proper response, but all this is beyond the scope of this post and this forum] Say child a gets vaccine a and has a bad reaction, so mom no longer vaxxes siblings with vaccine a and they all catch disease a and do fine. And her neighbors and sisters and friends kids also get disease a and are fine. And some other neighbor, sisters, cousins kid gets vaccine a, and reports a similar bad reaction. Isn't it logical for her to assume that child a would have also done okay with disease a? of course there's no way to know without a doubt, but this line of thinking sounds pretty reasonable to me.

We actually had that situation.

I got the whole cell pertussis vaccine. My sister got some of the doses and then she started to have a reaction, which turned into a chronic health issue. None of the younger siblings ever got the pertussis vaccine.

BUT we all got the disease. As the only fully-vaccinated sibling I had the mildest case. The sibling who had had the reaction had a very severe reaction to the disease itself, much much worse than her reaction to the vaccine, and medical professionals could do nothing but wait it out (unlike with the vaccine-induced reactions, which were controlled by medication). The other siblings - the younger they were, the worse off they were.

Strangely our parents didn't get it. I guess they were more up-to-date on their pertussis shots than we were.

My kids have all had the vaccine. Firstly because I understand that the disease is prevalent and anyone reacting to the vaccine will similarly react to the disease - and much worse.

Secondly because the vaccine is no longer whole cell, it's acellular, and much much less likely to cause that particular reaction.
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meme6




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:28 am
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
Do you feel it would still be deadly in 2019?


I actually do feel that yes they would be deadly and all these illnesses are deadly to anyone that’s immune compromised they couldn’t walk out of there houses in out break areas because they could have died
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:34 am
southernbubby wrote:
But then the reverse logic would be that people who die of measles would have died from the MMR because measles in any form is fatal to that person.

...no, because the MMR is live ATTENUATED, precisely so that it will NOT be fatal.
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:40 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
I'm a non vaxxing parent and I've never kvetched about nut free school policies. [Incidentally, I believe there'd be a lot less life threatening allergies if we all vaxxed less, but I digress], but even if there are parents who do, the fact remains that nobody is really harmed by refraining from bringing nuts to school, even if they are a bit inconvenienced. But people are harmed by vaccines. So it's really not a great comparison at all.

Not true. Nut allergies can kill. It's not about "inconvenienced" - even if the child doesn't die s/he still goes through anaphylactic shock which is life-threatening in itself and then require hospitalization. And yes without an immediately aware adult that child may well die. And sometimes even with an immediately aware adult the child will die. The epipen doesn't cancel the reaction, it just buys you an extra few minutes to get to the hospital.
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banana123




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:47 am
southernbubby wrote:
I think that most VPDs have had some deaths and disabilities attributed to them, even if the victims were fetuses.
I do agree with you, however, that there is no connection between how someone reacts to an illness and how their bodies assimilate and process a vaccine.

There certainly is a connection. If you look at the list of possible side effects from a given vaccine it is simply a shorter version of the possible side effects from that disease. Shorter list and adverse reactions are much more rare. But otherwise the same reactions
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itsmeima




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:50 am
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
If your pediatrician told you with a straight face that the vaccine he is about to administer may cause death, and in fact just yesterday he had a little boy in his office who got a vaccine and died a few hours later, would you still give it?


Would I be more nervous, hell yes! But I'd definitely still give it.

One boy dying isn't a statistic.
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 12:54 am
.
amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:
Many VPD are NOT life and death. Do you have data on rates of side effects of vaccines to the rates of side effects of actual illnesses?
And where do you have proof of the fact that children who would have reacted to vaccines, would react worse to the illness. Based on the sheer number of ex vaxxers (who stopped because of perceived vaccine reactions), who got their kids the measles and their kids are completely fine, alive and kicking, I dont think this is a valid comment. Do you have data to back this?

You're asking if I have proof that a child who reacted to the vaccine also reacted adversely to the same disease? That's impossible - because other than in cases of pertussis, tetanus, and other booster-requiring vaccines, the vaccines provide immunity.

You write about "sheer numbers" - do you have those numbers, or is this based solely on your perception of the situation?

In modern society 1 in 1000 measles patients will die, and 1 in 10 requires hospitalization. Those same 1 in 10 *would have died* if not for hospitalization and *will die* if hospitals are underfunded or overfull and cannot help them. If a given anti/ex-vaxxer's children are in that 1 in 10, or the 9 in 10, no one can say.

Which VPD are not life and death?

And regarding vaccine side effects, do you have a reliable source? Because right now VAERS takes any story, even if the cause of death is completely clear and unrelated to vaccines (like a mother who drank whiskey and co-slept with her baby, smothering her, and the post-mortem examinations showed that the baby had been smothered). So that's not really reliable at all.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 7:06 am
banana123 wrote:
There certainly is a connection. If you look at the list of possible side effects from a given vaccine it is simply a shorter version of the possible side effects from that disease. Shorter list and adverse reactions are much more rare. But otherwise the same reactions


But the reaction to either the disease or the vaccine may not çorrelate in a person. A person who dies from the vaccine might have survived the disease and a person who dies from the disease probably would have survived the vaccine.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 25 2019, 7:10 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
...no, because the MMR is live ATTENUATED, precisely so that it will NOT be fatal.


That's why I said that there is no direct correlation. When people die of measles it is often from opportunistic infections, such as pneumonia, that attack when the immune system is down.
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