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Democrats: What was/is your red line?
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:28 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Have you ever met a Democrat who is opposed to life?

How do you feel about Republican efforts to cut food stamps, health care, social security and other programs for needy people?

How do you feel about the treatment of immigrant children? Or about the fact that immigrant children as young as 3 have to represent themselves in immigration court?


I haven't met Ralph Northam the Democrat who advocated for infanticide. His blackface was interesting as was his recent offer to moonwalk.

I have no problem with cutting programs for those able to work. When you make programs too easy, it becomes a disincentive to work and produces intergenerational welfare dependency. I support Republican policies that produce the lowest rate of unemployment for Hispanics and blacks. This gives families dignity and hope.

I applaud strong borders that keep immigrant children from being used as pawns. I don't remember you ranting about this when we had a democratic administration.

Please show me the cite where 3 year olds represent themselves in court.
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sequoia




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:30 am
roses wrote:
Had Mitt Romney won the nomination, I would have voted for him. Or pretty much any of the others, except for Ted Cruz. I felt that it was a real shame that Trump barrelled over the reasonable steady Republican candidates.


Yeah Sad

I ended up voting for that bald fella who didn’t pay his vendors.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:32 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Now I know that you just make this stuff up as you go along, and make sure that its as nasty and incendiary as possible. Right before Kol Nidre. Nice.

Google DFLA.

I'm pro-choice, of course, because I'm a Torah-observant Jew, and I know that there are cases in which Jewish women are obligated to have an abortion. I wouldn't want to force them to go through a pregnancy that could endanger their lives or fertility in violation of rabbinic psak and halacha. Shocking to learn that people on an Orthodox site would view denial of the ability to fulfill halacha as something they support so strongly.


Google this:

"The evisceration of pro-life Democrats from Congress is all but complete. Attacked by both Democrats and Republicans and pro-life and pro-choice activists, most of these legislators have been either forced to change their views or defeated at the ballot box." https://religionnews.com/2019/.....rats/

"They call to mind a big debate that Democrats had last year: Should the Democratic party have litmus tests for candidates as a means of determining who to support?"
https://www.refinery29.com/en-.....ction


Last edited by #BestBubby on Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:34 am
groisamomma wrote:
I totally get that current Democrats won't switch to the dark side and vote for Trump, but what would it take for you to say enough is enough and stop voting Democrat?
If you've already disassociated from the party, what was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Signed,
A proud person that supports morality and Yiddishkeit. Call me a racist bigot.


I think this question is fair enough. I've given my answer plenty of times but I don't mind reiterating it here.

I voted Republican until 2016. Nominating Trump was the straw that broke the camel's back. The way that the party has consistently fallen in line with Trump, enabled him and never once stood up to his abuses of power is a huge barrier to me ever voting Republican again.

What would make me switch back to Republican? I realize that parties are not static and values can shift. For example Republicans were the anti-slavery party but now they're the white supremacist party. If it ever switches back, sure. There may be a new centrist party that comes out of this debacle and I may consider voting for them. Or if the Democrats nominated an obvious fraud or demagogue. Al Sharpton is one name that comes to mind. I can't think of anyone else currently in the Democratic party who fits the bill.

I don't owe any allegiance to the Republican party OR the Democratic party. That's why I find your last line so confusing and frankly, disturbing. Are you implying that if you are a proud person who supports morality and Yiddishkeit you must vote Republican? No, I don't consider you a racist bigot but I have said many times on other threads that I don't see any connection between being a proud Jew and loving Yiddishkeit and voting Republican. In fact I have to question the Yiddishkeit of anyone who conflates a non jewish political party with Torah and G-d. Tonight we are going to be saying a long list of al chets, and "al chet that I didn't vote Republican" isn't one of them. Nor do I think the Republican party is the more moral one. I see them as a party that's quite willing to overlook or compromise on their so-called morality if they think it will help them achieve their goals. Nor do I necessarily think that morality begins and ends with restricting abortion and hating gays. There's a lot more involved in moral values than that.

It says in Pirkei Avos, "hevei mispalel b'shlomo shel malchus." We should pray for the peace of the government. The way I interpret this Mishnah is that we should pray for stability. So I support the party that I think will contribute more to national and global stability. I realize that some people love the fact that Trump is a disrupter and a chaos agent, but as a Jew who studies history I know that destabilization is rarely our friend. Trump is disrupting the economy, disrupting the Middle East, disrupting our global relationships in ways that are difficult to predict. I don't think the people he's allying himself with are the good guys. I don't think saying "I love Israel" is enough when you are pursuing policies that bring the rest of the world closer to war. I support Jews in Israel but there are also many Jews in Ukraine who will suffer if Putin is allowed to pursue his war of aggression unchecked. I also think we benefit from living under a strong democratic government with a constitution and rule of law. The founding fathers were very smart in establishing a divided government with checks and balances. I don't think they anticipated what would happen if 40% of the country fell under the sway of a demagogue like Trump. If there was a Democratic leader who showed similar autocratic tendencies you'd better believe I'd run in the other direction.
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:36 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Now I know that you just make this stuff up as you go along, and make sure that its as nasty and incendiary as possible. Right before Kol Nidre. Nice.

Google DFLA.

I'm pro-choice, of course, because I'm a Torah-observant Jew, and I know that there are cases in which Jewish women are obligated to have an abortion. I wouldn't want to force them to go through a pregnancy that could endanger their lives or fertility in violation of rabbinic psak and halacha. Shocking to learn that people on an Orthodox site would view denial of the ability to fulfill halacha as something they support so strongly.


This goes both ways. You are attacking her personally before right before khol Nidre. It's the same nice.

I bowed out of the other thead because Democrats were advocating breaking halacha right before yom Kippur by saying to report Frum Jews and making up federal obligations to report them.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:37 am
Squishy wrote:
I haven't met Ralph Northam the Democrat who advocated for infanticide. His blackface was interesting as was his recent offer to moonwalk.

I have no problem with cutting programs for those able to work. When you make programs too easy, it becomes a disincentive to work and produces intergenerational welfare dependency. I support Republican policies that produce the lowest rate of unemployment for Hispanics and blacks. This gives families dignity and hope.

I applaud strong borders that keep immigrant children from being used as pawns. I don't remember you ranting about this when we had a democratic administration.

Please show me the cite where 3 year olds represent themselves in court.


Here's a video. Scroll to 1:44 and 2:43. Enjoy.

https://scroll.in/video/885376.....in-us
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:45 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Google this:

"The evisceration of pro-life Democrats from Congress is all but complete. Attacked by both Democrats and Republicans and pro-life and pro-choice activists, most of these legislators have been either forced to change their views or defeated at the ballot box." https://religionnews.com/2019/.....rats/


Just FYI for other readers on this message board, the above link is to a website that's sponsored primarily by a Christian organization that seeks to promote Christian ideology. https://lillyendowment.org/our-work/religion/

The author of the article teaches Christian ethics at Fordham and is also the founder and co-director of the Catholics Conversation Project.

I don't know why anyone on this site would want to take their talking points from a site that aims to spread Christianity and the Christian viewpoint on abortion, or someone who lectures on Christian ethics and Catholicism, but I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide whether Christian ideology is for you.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:49 am
WhatFor wrote:
Just FYI for other readers on this message board, the above link is to a website that's sponsored primarily by a Christian organization that seeks to promote Christian ideology. https://lillyendowment.org/our-work/religion/

The author of the article teaches Christian ethics at Fordham and is also the founder and co-director of the Catholics Conversation Project.

I don't know why anyone on this site would want to take their talking points from a site that aims to spread Christianity and the Christian viewpoint on abortion, or someone who lectures on Christian ethics and Catholicism, but I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide whether Christian ideology is for you.


Q: What is WORSE: Christian or Atheist?

A: ATHEIST. Believing in G-d is one of the Mitzvos of Bnei Noach. And ATHEISTS (socialists) have murdered 100 Million people quite recently!

Democrats are promoting atheism with mandating teaching evolution, banning prayer in school, banning displays of 10 Commandments, promoting LGBQT agenda, persecuting religious, trying to shut down yeshivas, trying to restrict bris milah, etc.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:21 am; edited 2 times in total
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groisamomma




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:50 am
Jeanette wrote:

SNIP
I don't owe any allegiance to the Republican party OR the Democratic party. That's why I find your last line so confusing and frankly, disturbing. Are you implying that if you are a proud person who supports morality and Yiddishkeit you must vote Republican? No, I don't consider you a racist bigot but I have said many times on other threads that I don't see any connection between being a proud Jew and loving Yiddishkeit and voting Republican. In fact I have to question the Yiddishkeit of anyone who conflates a non jewish political party with Torah and G-d. Tonight we are going to be saying a long list of al chets, and "al chet that I didn't vote Republican" isn't one of them. Nor do I think the Republican party is the more moral one. I see them as a party that's quite willing to overlook or compromise on their so-called morality if they think it will help them achieve their goals. Nor do I necessarily think that morality begins and ends with restricting abortion and hating gays. There's a lot more involved in moral values than that.


Fair enough. Sadly, because both sides have candidates that to me are immoral, I have to value individual candidates over party values when it comes to certain issues. That's where we agree on being flexible and not owing allegiance to either party. But I'd definitely say that there are more Republicans than Democrats that (to me, at least) fit the bill. Not all, but most.
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emanresu




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:55 am
groisamomma wrote:
Fair enough. Sadly, because both sides have candidates that to me are immoral, I have to value individual candidates over party values when it comes to certain issues. That's where we agree on being flexible and not owing allegiance to either party. But I'd definitely say that there are more Republicans than Democrats that (to me, at least) fit the bill. Not all, but most.


Agreed. When I have to choose between a morally repugnant individual like Trump, who promotes policies that allow me to live morally, and people who despise me for being moral, the choice is clear.
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:59 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Q: What is WORSE: Christian or Atheist?

A: ATHEIST. Believing in G-d is one of the Mitzvos of Bnei Noach. And ATHEISTS (socialists) have murdered 100 Million people quite recently!

Democrats are promoting atheism with mandating teaching evolution, promoting LGBQT agenda, persecuting religious, trying to shut down yeshivas, trying to restrict bris milah, etc.


So you're knowingly promoting Christian ideology (idolatry) on this website because they're not atheists? I don't usually read or click on your links but the one time I did, there it was. So now I'm curious: Is this a one-off or are you regularly promoting Christianity here?
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 11:59 am
emanresu wrote:
Agreed. When I have to choose between a morally repugnant individual like Trump, who promotes policies that allow me to live morally, and people who despise me for being moral, the choice is clear.


Well, that's where we differ.

I have yet to see a Democratic policy that interferes with my ability to live morally. As to what other people think of my morality, I frankly couldn't care less. But I see a lot of Republicans on this site who despise me and cast aspersions on my Yiddishkeit because of the way I vote. (Not you, groisamomma! Thank you for clarifying!)
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:01 pm
I would vote for a republican when the other candidate has an objectively worse record for accuracy/ telling the truth or / and is corrupt or immoral as shown by reliable evidence.

For example, Kasich objectively has a better record for being accurate and honest than Pelosi does so I would most likely vote for Kasich over Pelosi, even though I disagree with Kasich on abortion.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:02 pm
roses wrote:
For me it's always been candidate specific and not about party


Same. But in a hypothetical situation how bad would the other candidate have to be for me to vote for Trump?

Violate free speech by too many regulations.
Glorify abortion (as opposed to simply allowing it)
Be outright nasty and cruel to people who do not fit into a minority box because of who they are (as opposed to what they have said or done)

But of course we will probably disagree on the definition of “too many regulations”, “glorify” and “nasty and cruel”.


Last edited by Ravenclaw on Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:04 pm
I also voted Republican in presidential elections until 2016. If the Republicans had fielded someone who I thought could competently do the job while maintaining an abortion platform that would allow for the following of halacha I probably would have voted for them again.

Instead I've been pushed further and further left and the Democrats are currently fielding candidates who I don't love. But as this point, my red line is, that they are not incompetent and are willing to follow basic electoral law.

In answer to bestbubby, do I prefer an atheist or a (evangelical hardcorel xtian to represent me. In politics I'd rather the atheist. Because the reading of the first amendment as xtian is inherently problematic for me as a frum jew.
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:10 pm
simcha2 wrote:
I also voted Republican in presidential elections until 2016. If the Republicans had fielded someone who I thought could competently do the job while maintaining an abortion platform that would allow for the following of halacha I probably would have voted for them again.

Instead I've been pushed further and further left and the Democrats are currently fielding candidates who I don't love. But as this point, my red line is, that they are not incompetent and are willing to follow basic electoral law.

In answer to bestbubby, do I prefer an atheist or a (evangelical hardcorel xtian to represent me. In politics I'd rather the atheist. Because the reading of the first amendment as xtian is inherently problematic for me as a frum jew.


Well bestbubby never need worry about Trump being an atheist. He believes he's God.
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:28 pm
WhatFor wrote:
Well bestbubby never need worry about Trump being an atheist. He believes he's God.


Thumbs Up LOL
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:35 pm
In terms of voting in future elections, I doubt I will ever vote Republican again. I am also completely and totally disgusted with how the Republicans have supported Trump, even when it defied the safety, law, and national interests of the US. And even when his policies defied the traditional values of the Republican party itself- ie. The huge increase in the deficit, destabilizing regions with impulsive military withdrawal, etc. We have always been able to rely on Republicans in the past for prioritizing national safety and world stability. They have lost their way completely.
And they have refused to perform the checks and balances that are required of them in their roles. So there is that huge trust issue.

I am also of the belief that having a Christian oriented government is not in the best interests of frum Jews. A big separation of church and state has historically been best for Jews. Christianity has never been our friend, and there are significant ideological and practical differences between the groups. Having a government set policy heavily informed by Christian ideology will likely infringe on our abilities to practice as frum Jews. Abortion is one significant and worrisome area where this plays out. The Republican alignment with Evangelical Christians is something that I do not believe is in our best interests

I am also very opposed to the serious human rights violations that have been conducted regarding immigration;. Cruel child separation policies, disgusting rhetoric, etc. All are very concerning for me as a Jew, especially given our own recent history as the people who were oppressed, whose babies were ripped from their mothers arms, who were refused access to emigrate to safety, left to die in countries that used similar rhetoric to justify the marginalization of Jews, etc. If the president and his party would carry out immigration policy with the same strategies, but without the sadistic cruelty we have recently seen, I would not have such serious objections. I object to the sadistic cruelty, especially the deliberate child separation, and the silence of a party who considers themselves the voice of morality. So they have lost my trust in that department as well.

And finally, for a minute, I actually believed Trump and his cronies and his stated interest in reforming health care policy. I was hopeful that something good may come out of this debacle of a presidency. The complete lack of attention, interest, and effort, and success (when they owned the government for 2 years) tells me that they have zero interest in making improvements in this area or in bettering the lives of middle income Americans, for whom health care is a serious concern and expense.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:46 pm
I must say, this has been a very eye-opening thread for me, though not in the way that many posters likely intended.
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emanresu




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:59 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Well, that's where we differ.

I have yet to see a Democratic policy that interferes with my ability to live morally. As to what other people think of my morality, I frankly couldn't care less. But I see a lot of Republicans on this site who despise me and cast aspersions on my Yiddishkeit because of the way I vote. (Not you, groisamomma! Thank you for clarifying!)


I don't have anything against you at all!. The thing is, their plans do interfere with my living morally. Forcing me to give money to PP for example. My main point though was that the left (Not Democrats neccesarily, but the party is headed there) hates religion. This cartoon illustrates it pretty well.
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