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Democrats: What was/is your red line?
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 11:46 am
I don't vote for Democrats who sell short Israel's interests. That said, I am a supporter of a two-state solution, so criticizing Netanyahu is not "anti-Israel" in my book. (But some things do go beyond that line and I do take this line seriously. That's why Mitt Romney got my vote and not Barack Obama in 2012.)

If it had been Romney or Rubio or someone like that up against Hillary in 2016, I probably would have gone with the Republican.

And that's even considering that I am on the side of Democrats with regard to health care reform, gun control, deficit reduction (seriously. Look at every president since I was a teen in the Clinton eras. Democrats have done markedly better on that score despite the tired talking points), foreign policy out of Israel, climate change as an actual issue, and tax reform (I believe that our current tax cut was pure immorality, giving the wealthiest the lowest taxes in modern times while ballooning the deficit). While I don't support open borders, I am more in line with moderate Democrats' views on immigration--that we need a pathway to citizenship for the undocumented and we need to encourage numbers of legal immigrants.

But Israel is a big and major issue. Even though I would agree with Warren on more issues, if she comes up against Pence, I probably vote for Pence.

But I would never vote for Trump unless he gets a brain transplant and a soul transplant. His narcissism is pathological and I don't think there is anything that would stop him from abusing the power of his office for his personal benefit. Nothing he has done has surprised me.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:05 pm
Others above have said that they support Trump for the economy. My position has always been not to credit or fault presidents for economies. The causes of economic conditions, and the effects of political actions, are much-studied but little understood. Economists could tell you their theories, but if we knew what made a good economy, we would never have bad ones.

I prefer to say that Hoover did not cause the Great Depression, FDR's New Deal did not cause the recovery, Clinton did not cause the 90s boom, GW Bush did not cause the Great Recession, Obama did not cause the Great Recovery, and Trump did not cause the economy we have today either. If we have a recession in 2020, I also will not fault Trump. Fair is fair.

(Since the Trump tax cuts, economic growth has slowed down. But it's not the tax cut's credit or fault!)

The only thing that I think sometimes deserves credit is when trade wars directly precipitate recessions. For this, Hoover gets some fault (albeit in 1930 with the Hawley-Smoot Tariff, and the Depression was already happening). Whether Trump would have anything to do with a 2020 recession is total speculation, but my baseline assumption is that he will not be at fault even if it does happen.

ETA: All that said, IMO it is a weak defense to say that you'll support Trump because he made a good economy. Did the same people want to dump GW Bush in his final year of office or support Clinton in the 1990s economic boom? It's so much easier to accept that economies are too multi-variable for the government's policies' impacts to be predictive.

And for the record, I've been saying this since the beginning of the Obama era recovery.


Last edited by wiki on Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:34 pm
A few people have mentioned the Democratic Congresswomen Tlaib, Omar, and Ocasio-Cortez. Unless they are running for president, or you live in their district, they aren't who you're voting for.

Trust me, I would support their primary challengers and I hope they leave the House soon! But most of the party does not agree with them on their radical positions.

By the same token, the Republican Party would require abandoning over the Steve King and the Rockland County GOP for their white nationalism and anti-Semitism.

Both parties have loony radicals and anti-Semites on the fringes. Both have normal politicians in their rank and file. It's morally wrong to marry yourself blindly to either party.
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 12:42 pm
Has no one yet mentioned that two of Giuliani's associates who were trying to help him spread propaganda of this Biden conspiracy were just arrested today? Giuliani's people were funneling Russian funds to help Trump's campaign, and promote this conspiracy.
For someone who supposedly chooses "the best people", Trump sure does surround himself with a lot of criminals.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/t.....d=mhp
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:05 pm
WhatFor wrote:
Has no one yet mentioned that two of Giuliani's associates who were trying to help him spread propaganda of this Biden conspiracy were just arrested today? Giuliani's people were funneling Russian funds to help Trump's campaign, and promote this conspiracy.
For someone who supposedly chooses "the best people", Trump sure does surround himself with a lot of criminals.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/t.....d=mhp


I'm actually not feeling too good about this arrest. I don't trust Bill Barr and this may be a way of keeping them from testifying. I hope they don't mysteriously die in custody a la Jeffrey Epstein.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:15 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm actually not feeling too good about this arrest. I don't trust Bill Barr and this may be a way of keeping them from testifying. I hope they don't mysteriously die in custody a la Jeffrey Epstein.


It's scary that this is something we need to be concerned about- and it is a very legitimate concern
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:41 pm
roses wrote:
It's scary that this is something we need to be concerned about- and it is a very legitimate concern


While we're at it, let's also be scared about the fact that these two were recently honored by Young Israel.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 3:42 pm
WhatFor wrote:
Has no one yet mentioned that two of Giuliani's associates who were trying to help him spread propaganda of this Biden conspiracy were just arrested today? Giuliani's people were funneling Russian funds to help Trump's campaign, and promote this conspiracy.
For someone who supposedly chooses "the best people", Trump sure does surround himself with a lot of criminals.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/t.....d=mhp

Seriously? These two guys made illegal PAC contributions of $325K to a pro-Trump PAC. By comparison, the GOP raised $125 million in the 3rd quarter alone -- for a total of $156 million in cash-on-hand.

Donating $325K would not make someone a high roller in Trump or GOP circles.

But, of course, attempts by foreign nationals to donate money to hopefully influence elected officials are always concerning.

Which is why some of us didn't buy the explanation that Ukrainians paying President Clinton $500K for an hour-long speech while his wife was Sec'y of State was perfectly legitimate. And why some of us were suspicious when Ukrainians were revealed to have been the top big-money donors to the Clinton Foundation -- though their charity-mindedness seemed to dry up after Hillary Clinton lost in 2016.

But since we were assured that such transactions were completely above-board, a few hundred thousand dollars illegally donated to a PAC must have simply been an innocent mistake, right?
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groisamomma




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 4:05 pm
Jeanette wrote:
The Supreme Court ruled against the baker.

But even cases like these don't affect MY ability to live a moral lifestyle. At worst they affect my ability to impose my moral standards on others. Maybe you see that as essential to living a moral lifestyle. I don't.

I work in healthcare. I have patients who are gay or transgender. I can't say I fully understand what makes people transgender or what's the best way to treat it. But when they're my patients they have just as much right to healthcare as anyone else and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. When they need counseling I try to refer them to someone with expertise in gender identity disorders. I'm not in that field so I haven't been in a position that I have to directly counsel people to do things that I believe are against the Torah. I'd be interested in hearing from frum Jews who do work in mental health how they handle it.

There are shailas that come up when you work in healthcare. Like if you have to remove someone from life support. Or assisting in an abortion. You ask a rav what to do and follow his guidance. And sometimes following halacha might get in the way of getting a certain job or working in a certain area. Most jobs in healthcare require working on shabbos so it can be very hard. Still, I don't think my need to follow halacha should get in the way of someone else getting the healthcare they need.


The Supreme Court ruled for the baker due to the anti-religious bias of investigators throughout, not because it put religion over gay people. On the contrary, the Supreme Court refused to hear the same type of case in Oregon because it doesn't want to show support for either side. That family was forced to close their business when they were fined $135,000 for putting their religion ahead of LGBTQ's right to impose their lifestyle on the family.

So the baker scenario actually disproves your point. The rights of gay people should NOT trump my religious rights but unfortunately, society is sooooo PC that religion is trampled on in an effort to be sooooo inclusive and punish people for not bowing to the LGBTQ community. I consider that affecting my ability to live morally.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 4:25 pm
groisamomma wrote:
The Supreme Court ruled for the baker due to the anti-religious bias of investigators throughout, not because it put religion over gay people.

Two points to add to what Groisamomma said:

* The anti-religious animus on the part of the Colorado Human Rights Commission was encouraged by various policies of the Obama administration, most notably the stated belief on the part of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission that religion is often just an excuse for bigotry.

* The plaintiffs in the Masterpiece Cake case drove 120 miles from their home, bypassing 67 other bakeries, including 6 Muslim bakeries which would likely have refused the commission as well. This was an orchestrated hit job, not a gay couple innocently in search of a wedding cake. Since then, Masterpiece Cake has been hit with additional lawsuits for refusal to bake a "transgender celebration cake" and a "Satanist cake."
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 4:55 pm
groisamomma wrote:
The Supreme Court ruled for the baker due to the anti-religious bias of investigators throughout, not because it put religion over gay people. On the contrary, the Supreme Court refused to hear the same type of case in Oregon because it doesn't want to show support for either side. That family was forced to close their business when they were fined $135,000 for putting their religion ahead of LGBTQ's right to impose their lifestyle on the family.

So the baker scenario actually disproves your point. The rights of gay people should NOT trump my religious rights but unfortunately, society is sooooo PC that religion is trampled on in an effort to be sooooo inclusive and punish people for not bowing to the LGBTQ community. I consider that affecting my ability to live morally.


I'm not really sure which Oregon case you're referring to. Can you post a link?

I wrote a little about how I'd approach these situations in my line of work. I believe that LGBTQ people have the right to live, work, shop, seek healthcare etc. It doesnt violate my personal morality to have to deal with an LGBTQ individual. If I did feel there was a conflict between what my job required and what halacha demands I'd consult a rav and follow his advice. Maybe the answer would be not to take that job, just like I can't take a job that requires Saturday hours. If I have to give something up for the sake of halacha, so be it.
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Fox




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 5:40 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I believe that LGBTQ people have the right to live, work, shop, seek healthcare etc. It doesnt violate my personal morality to have to deal with an LGBTQ individual.

None of these cases involve denying LGBT people routine service; they involve the right of decline specific commissioned work, which has always received greater protection.

In other words, a gay couple could walk into Masterpiece Cakes and purchase a ready-made cake for use at their wedding, and the owner would be happy to sell it to them. However, the owner declines to take specific commissions because of his religious beliefs, just as a number of designers declined to make dresses for Melania Trump because of their political beliefs. Melania is welcome to purchase a Marc Jacobs dress from the store of her choice, but he's not going to design a dress for her.

You mentioned health care and the ability to refer an LGBT patient to another care provider. But what if that weren't permitted? That has been the case for a number of students providing services as part of their clinical hours, resulting in dismissal from their university programs. Psychotherapy Notes

And is it in the best interests of patients to work with mental health providers who cannot legitimately affirm them?

I don't think anyone genuinely wants to deprive anyone of services because of their identity, orientation, or whatever. But currently, the agenda of transgender activists, in particular, has gone far beyond civil rights and has veered into mandated affirmation.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:37 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Have you ever met a Democrat who is opposed to life?

How do you feel about Republican efforts to cut food stamps, health care, social security and other programs for needy people?

How do you feel about the treatment of immigrant children? Or about the fact that immigrant children as young as 3 have to represent themselves in immigration court?


Dems now support late term abortion and abortion after birth (murder).
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:38 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
FTR, my red lines are (I) support of Israel (although my notion of support of Israel is very different from right-wing views of support of Israel); (ii) equal rights for ALL Americans; (iii) gun control; (iv) ensuring that we take care of our most vulnerable.

And I vote candidate, not party.


Just so we clarify, do you consider illegal immigrants part of your “All AMericans,” and “OUR most vulnerable?” Because they are not. Only legal citizens are.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:42 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I think this question is fair enough. I've given my answer plenty of times but I don't mind reiterating it here.

I voted Republican until 2016. Nominating Trump was the straw that broke the camel's back. The way that the party has consistently fallen in line with Trump, enabled him and never once stood up to his abuses of power is a huge barrier to me ever voting Republican again.

What would make me switch back to Republican? I realize that parties are not static and values can shift. For example Republicans were the anti-slavery party but now they're the white supremacist party. If it ever switches back, sure. There may be a new centrist party that comes out of this debacle and I may consider voting for them. Or if the Democrats nominated an obvious fraud or demagogue. Al Sharpton is one name that comes to mind. I can't think of anyone else currently in the Democratic party who fits the bill.

I don't owe any allegiance to the Republican party OR the Democratic party. That's why I find your last line so confusing and frankly, disturbing. Are you implying that if you are a proud person who supports morality and Yiddishkeit you must vote Republican? No, I don't consider you a racist bigot but I have said many times on other threads that I don't see any connection between being a proud Jew and loving Yiddishkeit and voting Republican. In fact I have to question the Yiddishkeit of anyone who conflates a non jewish political party with Torah and G-d. Tonight we are going to be saying a long list of al chets, and "al chet that I didn't vote Republican" isn't one of them. Nor do I think the Republican party is the more moral one. I see them as a party that's quite willing to overlook or compromise on their so-called morality if they think it will help them achieve their goals. Nor do I necessarily think that morality begins and ends with restricting abortion and hating gays. There's a lot more involved in moral values than that.

It says in Pirkei Avos, "hevei mispalel b'shlomo shel malchus." We should pray for the peace of the government. The way I interpret this Mishnah is that we should pray for stability. So I support the party that I think will contribute more to national and global stability. I realize that some people love the fact that Trump is a disrupter and a chaos agent, but as a Jew who studies history I know that destabilization is rarely our friend. Trump is disrupting the economy, disrupting the Middle East, disrupting our global relationships in ways that are difficult to predict. I don't think the people he's allying himself with are the good guys. I don't think saying "I love Israel" is enough when you are pursuing policies that bring the rest of the world closer to war. I support Jews in Israel but there are also many Jews in Ukraine who will suffer if Putin is allowed to pursue his war of aggression unchecked. I also think we benefit from living under a strong democratic government with a constitution and rule of law. The founding fathers were very smart in establishing a divided government with checks and balances. I don't think they anticipated what would happen if 40% of the country fell under the sway of a demagogue like Trump. If there was a Democratic leader who showed similar autocratic tendencies you'd better believe I'd run in the other direction.


If for nothing else, just the fact that the dem party now has openly antisemitic members and their leaders have done zero to condemn their hate, is reason alone that every frum Jew should be voting against them. Silence is agreement, that’s what the Torah holds. Voting for them makes one complicit in antisemitism. Period.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:43 pm
WhatFor wrote:
Just FYI for other readers on this message board, the above link is to a website that's sponsored primarily by a Christian organization that seeks to promote Christian ideology. https://lillyendowment.org/our-work/religion/

The author of the article teaches Christian ethics at Fordham and is also the founder and co-director of the Catholics Conversation Project.

I don't know why anyone on this site would want to take their talking points from a site that aims to spread Christianity and the Christian viewpoint on abortion, or someone who lectures on Christian ethics and Catholicism, but I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide whether Christian ideology is for you.


So watching that is abhorrent to you but supporting a party with anti semites is not?
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:45 pm
marina wrote:
I would vote for a republican when the other candidate has an objectively worse record for accuracy/ telling the truth or / and is corrupt or immoral as shown by reliable evidence.

For example, Kasich objectively has a better record for being accurate and honest than Pelosi does so I would most likely vote for Kasich over Pelosi, even though I disagree with Kasich on abortion.


Lol, what a surprise you like Kasich! He just so happens to hate Trump.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:47 pm
groisamomma wrote:
One question, since this thread has derailed anyway (thanks, marina, for answering the op before jumping into the fray!):
How do people that love and support Israel explain the (mostly Democrat) backing of the BDS movement?


Yes we’d all love to hear that answer...it’ll probably be something like, “Israel isn’t my first priority. Abortion is.”
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:48 pm
marina wrote:
the democratic candidates I will support are not in favor of BDS so I don’t think BDS is relevant to my decision.


The entire dem party supports it by not calling out the antisemites openly supporting it along with aid cuts to Israel.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:50 pm
marina wrote:
My favorites have always been Cory and Pete, I don’t believe either of them support BDS.

I voted for Kasich in the 2016 Primaries in Ohio. He’s a decent stand up republican guy, even though like I said, I disagree with him abt some important issues including abortion.


https://www.jta.org/2019/02/07.....-bill

“https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/views-on-israel-of-u-s-presidential-candidates-2020-cory-booker”

Make sure to read all of it.
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