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DH asks,Does G-d really care
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 6:13 am
LovesHashem wrote:
There's no 100 proof answers for any religion. You need to realize that. You can't prove any religion. You can though, give a lot of evidence, through small things. And that's adds up. In real life in court you don't need proof many times, you can work off of evidence.


Granted, most would agree there isn't 100% proof. However, to get to a place where you're comfortable and are not constantly wondering if it's true or not, you have to believe with a high level of certainty. Whether that 85%, 90%, or 95%, who knows. As I said before, I think for most people to achieve these levels of certainty, it is likely the result of (smartly) deliberately not seeking the truth properly. Namely, intentionally avoiding watching and learning what several of the leading doubters say and learning about the reasons why they believe what they do.
For many that have looked into this side of things, their level of certainty about religion drops from a manageable 90%, to a far lower number that is not comfortable.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 6:16 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Granted, most would agree there isn't 100% proof. However, to get to a place where you're comfortable and are not constantly wondering if it's true or not, you have to believe with a high level of certainty. Whether that 85%, 90%, or 95%, who knows. As I said before, I think for most people to achieve these levels of certainty, it is likely the result of (smartly) deliberately not seeking the truth properly. Namely, intentionally avoiding watching and learning what several of the leading doubters say and learning about the reasons why they believe what they do.
For many that have looked into this side of things, their level of certainty about religion drops from a manageable 90%, to a far lower number that is not comfortable.


I actually like reading atheist material and watching atheist videos.
It makes me think more, have more questions, and deepen my knowledge.
But not everyone can handle that I guess.

I also like to watch Ben Shapiro, who is more of a politician but he's orthodox and I find his logic behind things so fascinating.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 6:19 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Oh ye of little faith. (I have to laugh at my own pun, thank you very much.)

I'm writing this under my own screen name. I was nearly kicked out of schools for the types of questions I had. My parents couldn't stand it either and it's a running joke in my family. I was always combative and reading, fighting and learning. To this day, I still have questions and questions and questions. Who said I'm all in with anything? Who said anyone on this thread has accepted anything? Who said no one has doubts?

I used to write down my questions and mail it to my high school Rabbi. (Back then in the dark ages, teens didn't have email addresses.) I used to stay after class to speak to anyone I thought could help me understand a passage better. I entered a program geared for adults who were becoming religious to learn about everything from the beginning.

Heck, in this day and age, we teach our kids to have doubts about whether they're even a boy or a girl. Doubt is part and parcel of our world. Some people squash it. Some people wrestle with it. Some people have made peace with it. The people answering this thread are usually the latter. But many wrestle with it, and a popular lecturer on Torah Anytime is not going to bring up a very thorny faith-question on mainstream media and attempt to tackle it. That's more of a private conversation, I think.

The Ani Maa'min isn't about what you already have faith in, but what you should realize to be true. And who said that it isn't a journey? Korach took an accelerated course, sure, but at some point the destination should be, for example, that Moshe is true and his Torah is true.

Everyone comes to their own conclusions based on their own unique way of looking and relating to the world. I had to have a child with severe problems for me to realize that our brains are miraculous things, and can't be explained by any scientific equation. That was the first step in my journey to faith. But it can't be yours. Yours is another path. I urge you to take your own journey, look for things to help you. And doubt or no, ask God to send you people who can help you, because you want to be helped. If you don't, that's another issue.



Since you said you mailed some of your questions to your rabbi, I hope you don't mind me asking you for an example of a deep religion question you had and what the satisfactory reply was?

I always think of and hear good concise questions, and the answers usually involve reading a 300 page book or listening to a 10 part lecture series. I realize this doesn't mean it isn't true. Since you say you communicated in writing, I'd love to hear any example.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 6:56 am
LovesHashem wrote:
I actually like reading atheist material and watching atheist videos.
It makes me think more, have more questions, and deepen my knowledge.
But not everyone can handle that I guess.

I also like to watch Ben Shapiro, who is more of a politician but he's orthodox and I find his logic behind things so fascinating.


Respectfully, I think it's almost impossible to watch videos of well known atheists and not be very disturbed. If you're telling the truth and you really do watch this material, you are in the extreme minority who is not significantly influenced. I have my doubts. The reason these videos are so compelling is because they are direct, concise and right to the point. They often can't be proved wrong and have science behind it. The counter to this is watching a 25 part series (literally 25 parts) for example by rabbi yy. Again, this material doesn't prove anything. However, for almost everyone accept you, it leaves the viewer with questions and doubts that are very troubling.

I'm not sure what Ben shapiro has to do with this. He is obviously a brilliant person who is also a religious jew. He does have some snippets where he discusses religion, but I'm not clear on what your getting from him.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 7:19 am
He needs to ask his questions to someone who can reply and isnt affected.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 7:56 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Respectfully, I think it's almost impossible to watch videos of well known atheists and not be very disturbed. If you're telling the truth and you really do watch this material, you are in the extreme minority who is not significantly influenced. I have my doubts. The reason these videos are so compelling is because they are direct, concise and right to the point. They often can't be proved wrong and have science behind it. The counter to this is watching a 25 part series (literally 25 parts) for example by rabbi yy. Again, this material doesn't prove anything. However, for almost everyone accept you, it leaves the viewer with questions and doubts that are very troubling.



I certainly don't think anyone should be watching atheist videos. As Chazal have said heresy always has a tremendous pull on people. It always seems to make sense.

Looking back at history no matter how demonstrably false heresy was later universally recognized to be, at the time a belief is in vogue it has a tremendous pull and seems to be true.

That said the more familiar I became with atheistic arguments the less I became convinced of their truth and the more I realized that the atheists were demanding Emunah Peshuta .Believing their theories and even a lot of what they presented as proven fact required a lot of assumptions and trust in the ones who were saying them .

Their answer to "how do you KNOW that happened?" ended up boiling down to "because we said so and don't you dare question authority".

But again the same way had I lived 100 years ago I would (hopefully) be saying "stay away from communist meetings" and had I lived 200 years ago I would (hopefully) be saying "stay away from a scientific conference "proving" that the world has always existed" etc. today I'm saying "stay way from atheist videos"
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 8:01 am
I have read some of the stuff. I was dry and dreary. Dreadfully empty. Still don't put yourself inrisk.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:01 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Torah shebaal peh talks about the next world and reward and punishment. Torah shebaal peh came down with Moshe at Sinai just like Torah shebichsav did.

Yes, but parts of Torah shebaal peh were forgotten Sad It even says so in Tanach and Talmud . If this was so important , why HaShem didn’t put it in the Torah shebichtav where it stays for sure forever ?
I know from history of Judaism that Jews were not talking a lot about next world while living in eretz Israel, not in time of Beits Amigdash . Only after distraction of the Second Temple they started to developed this theme .
And there were different thoughts and versions about Olam Haba in Judaism, it tells me that we don’t know for sure how it works exactly.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:26 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
Yes, but parts of Torah shebaal peh were forgotten Sad It even says so in Tanach and Talmud . (1)If this was so important , why HaShem didn’t put it in the Torah shebichtav where it stays for sure forever ?
(2)I know from history of Judaism that Jews were not talking a lot about next world while living in eretz Israel, not in time of Beits Amigdash . Only after distraction of the Second Temple they started to developed this theme .
(3)And there were different thoughts and versions about Olam Haba in Judaism, it tells me that we don’t know for sure how it works exactly.


(1)The Torah S'Baal Peh that were forgotten were Halachos dealing with uncommon situations. Not fundamental like Schar V'Onesh. I have no idea why Hashem chose to put some thing in Torah S'Bksav and others in Torah S'Baal Peh but this one certainly never stood the risk of being forgotten

(2)Which history book do you know from? In any case that isn't true. Pirkey Avos which was mostly written during the time of the Second Beis HaMakdish very heavily focuses on ScharV'Onesh in the next world.

(3)That is correct. While there certainly is Schar V'onesh in the net world it's exact application and nature remains unclear to those still alive.


Last edited by leah233 on Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:27 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
Yes, but parts of Torah shebaal peh were forgotten Sad It even says so in Tanach and Talmud . If this was so important , why HaShem didn’t put it in the Torah shebichtav where it stays for sure forever ?
I know from history of Judaism that Jews were not talking a lot about next world while living in eretz Israel, not in time of Beits Amigdash . Only after distraction of the Second Temple they started to developed this theme .
And there were different thoughts and versions about Olam Haba in Judaism, it tells me that we don’t know for sure how it works exactly.


Where does it say that parts of Torah shebaal peh were forgotten? Cite it please.

In any case, while certain halachos were forgotten, the link of transmission is clear and the forgotten halachos were in any case restored.

What do you mean - the history of Judaism they didn't talk about this earlier? Of course Torah shebaal peh is from the beginning.

Different thoughts and versions of olam habah? Really, please cite this?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:31 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Granted, most would agree there isn't 100% proof. However, to get to a place where you're comfortable and are not constantly wondering if it's true or not, you have to believe with a high level of certainty. Whether that 85%, 90%, or 95%, who knows. As I said before, I think for most people to achieve these levels of certainty, it is likely the result of (smartly) deliberately not seeking the truth properly. Namely, intentionally avoiding watching and learning what several of the leading doubters say and learning about the reasons why they believe what they do.
For many that have looked into this side of things, their level of certainty about religion drops from a manageable 90%, to a far lower number that is not comfortable.


I disagree with this completely. I've looked into this topic extensively, and my level of certainty has gone up tremendously. I will not share my journey as everyone has different questions and different life experiences and what worked for me will not necessarily work for you, but I truly believe that " yagati umatzasi ta'amin".
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:56 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I disagree with this completely. I've looked into this topic extensively, and my level of certainty has gone up tremendously. I will not share my journey as everyone has different questions and different life experiences and what worked for me will not necessarily work for you, but I truly believe that " yagati umatzasi ta'amin".



Fair enough, but if I can ask one question. When you say you've looked into this topic extensively, does that include researching and extensively studying what leading people in the anti religion world say? I certainly don't blame you if you didn't, but at the same time you can't claim to have researched it if you're avoiding the best arguments from the brightest people.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 11:22 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Where does it say that parts of Torah shebaal peh were forgotten? Cite it please.

In any case, while certain halachos were forgotten, the link of transmission is clear and the forgotten halachos were in any case restored.

What do you mean - the history of Judaism they didn't talk about this earlier? Of course Torah shebaal peh is from the beginning.

Different thoughts and versions of olam habah? Really, please cite this?

When I started exploring Judaism I wanted to know what Judaism says about soul journey . And I listen and read different rabbis. They told different stories. And not even everyone agreed on reincarnation and how it works .
Yes, the forgotten parts were restored using logic . Not from the memory.
One of the accounts of forgotten Tora shebeal peh- in the story of rabbi Hillel.
I listen to many lectures about development of Halacha from an orthodox rabbi . Ok, may be he is not so orthodox, I mean not ultra Smile He says that preoccupation with Olam haBah was really very little when life in Israel was more or less good , before the Romans . He talks a lot about history and development of what we call “Torah shebeal pe “ , Midrash included. He studied in Bar Ilan university many of this. After an ultra-orthodox yeshiva .
Fascinating material for me. Not for all of streams of Judaism, of course . Not for those who think that we have to believe in the Talmud as in the Torah.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 11:59 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

I listen to many lectures about development of Halacha from an orthodox rabbi . Ok, may be he is not so orthodox, I mean not ultra Smile He says that preoccupation with Olam haBah was really very little when life in Israel was more or less good , before the Romans .


The guy doesn't seem to be too familiar with the Second Temple Era history becuase things weren't more or less good before the Romans showed up.

More importantly how can he be unaware that virtually the ONLY remining saying of Antognus Ish Sochuy, the leader of the second generation second Temple Era is a reference to reward and punishment?
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 1:29 pm
leah233 wrote:
The guy doesn't seem to be too familiar with the Second Temple Era history becuase things weren't more or less good before the Romans showed up.

More importantly how can he be unaware that virtually the ONLY remining saying of Antognus Ish Sochuy, the leader of the second generation second Temple Era is a reference to reward and punishment?

He says that in the time of the first temple and after all literature (including the Torah) talks about reward and punishment in this life, not in the after-life. Only after, with time, they start speaking about after-life reward and punishment.
I found this famous Antognus Ish Sochuy, He doesn’t say it’s in the after-life. Just about reward and punishment. It doesn’t contradicts what I am saying.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 3:28 pm
OP, major hugs. Apologies for answering after just reading the first page.
I think there are some great things to read and listen to, but I also think that finding IRL inspiration is invaluable. I hope that he finds people who will inspire and help him hold onto his faith.
He's not alone. He should feel normal. But there's a difference between the occasional yemei hasina and ruts, and something more serious. I really hope he can get to a place that will give him simcha and menucha.
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