DH asks,Does G-d really care

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:14 pm

Master of the Universe, let us make up. It is time. How long can we go on being angry?

More than 50 years have passed since the nightmare was lifted. Many things, good and less good, have since happened to those who survived it. They learned to build on ruins. Family life was re-created. Children were born, friendships struck. They learned to have faith in their surroundings, even in their fellow men and women. Gratitude has replaced bitterness in their hearts. No one is as capable of thankfulness as they are. Thankful to anyone willing to hear their tales and become their ally in the battle against apathy and forgetfulness. For them every moment is grace.

Oh, they do not forgive the killers and their accomplices, nor should they. Nor should you, Master of the Universe. But they no longer look at every passer-by with suspicion. Nor do they see a dagger in every hand.

Does this mean that the wounds in their soul have healed? They will never heal. As long as a spark of the flames of Auschwitz and Treblinka glows in their memory, so long will my joy be incomplete.

What about my faith in you, Master of the Universe?

I now realize I never lost it, not even over there, during the darkest hours of my life. I don't know why I kept on whispering my daily prayers, and those one reserves for the Sabbath, and for the holidays, but I did recite them, often with my father and, on Rosh ha-Shanah eve, with hundreds of inmates at Auschwitz. Was it because the prayers remained a link to the vanished world of my childhood?

But my faith was no longer pure. How could it be? It was filled with anguish rather than fervor, with perplexity more than piety. In the kingdom of eternal night, on the Days of Awe, which are the Days of Judgment, my traditional prayers were directed to you as well as against you, Master of the Universe. What hurt me more: your absence or your silence?

In my testimony I have written harsh words, burning words about your role in our tragedy. I would not repeat them today. But I felt them then. I felt them in every cell of my being. Why did you allow if not enable the killer day after day, night after night to torment, kill and annihilate tens of thousands of Jewish children? Why were they abandoned by your Creation? These thoughts were in no way destined to diminish the guilt of the guilty. Their established culpability is irrelevant to my ''problem'' with you, Master of the Universe. In my childhood I did not expect much from human beings. But I expected everything from you.

Where were you, God of kindness, in Auschwitz? What was going on in heaven, at the celestial tribunal, while your children were marked for humiliation, isolation and death only because they were Jewish?

These questions have been haunting me for more than five decades. You have vocal defenders, you know. Many theological answers were given me, such as: ''God is God. He alone knows what He is doing. One has no right to question Him or His ways.'' Or: ''Auschwitz was a punishment for European Jewry's sins of assimilation and/or Zionism.'' And: ''Isn't Israel the solution? Without Auschwitz, there would have been no Israel.''

I reject all these answers. Auschwitz must and will forever remain a question mark only: it can be conceived neither with God nor without God. At one point, I began wondering whether I was not unfair with you. After all, Auschwitz was not something that came down ready-made from heaven. It was conceived by men, implemented by men, staffed by men. And their aim was to destroy not only us but you as well. Ought we not to think of your pain, too? Watching your children suffer at the hands of your other children, haven't you also suffered?

As we Jews now enter the High Holidays again, preparing ourselves to pray for a year of peace and happiness for our people and all people, let us make up, Master of the Universe. In spite of everything that happened? Yes, in spite. Let us make up: for the child in me, it is unbearable to be divorced from you so long.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:16 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

The question about the Muslims and Christians is a compelling one. The classic answer given by the Kuzari is about the revelation story in front of millions vs. the "single prophet" revelation story. That answer used to be enough for me, until I saw my mother reading a book about how the Kuzari is false.

I don't believe the Kuzari is false, but for the sake of "da ma shetashiv l'apikorus," it's become more necessary for me to delve into these questions and confirm for myself that Yiddishkeit is the right way. My family and I are in a vulnerable position due to my mother's ideological war on frumkeit, and sometimes outright missionizing towards atheism.

Interesting note about the anti Kuzari arguments: To some degree they actually caused my disillusionment with the OTD world.

OTD people I knew would passionately insist that Judaism is not only the religion to believe it was founded by a Har Sinai type revelation.

They were vague about which religions and my research into the few examples given confirmed that someone claimed to be a messenger of god but the miracles done would(1) be easy for a human to replicate and (2)there were plenty of other differences between their experience and Har Sinai...

On the other hand this caused me to see red. If those OTD people were such rational truth seekers and they truly believed that thousands of people claimed to have seen a Har Sinai like revelation when a certain religion was founded why didn't they even consider the possibility that maybe it really happened? Why did they so passionately insist that other religions had a Har Sinai type revelation only to question the Kuzari but never to question atheism or any other belief of theirs?

This was from the many things that caused my disillusionment with the OTD world.

(I always have in mind to make an imamother post about why I became disillusioned with the OTD world but the post would probably be way too looong....)

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 1:19 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

Interesting note about the anti Kuzari arguments: To some degree they actually caused my disillusionment with the OTD world.

OTD people I knew would passionately insist that Judaism is not only the religion to believe it was founded by a Har Sinai type revelation.

They were vague about which religions and my research into the few examples given confirmed that someone claimed to be a messenger of god but the miracles done would(1) be easy for a human to replicate and 2)there were plenty of other differences between their experience and Har Sinai...

On the other hand something else caused me to see red. If those OTD people were such rational truth seekers and they truly believed that thousands of people claimed to have seen a Har Sinai like revelation when a certain religion was founded why didn't they even consider the possibility that maybe it really happened? Why did they so passionately insist that other religions had a Har Sinai type revelation only to question the Kuzari but never to question atheism or any other belief of theirs?

This was from the many things that caused my disillusionment with the OTD world.

(I always have in mind to make an imamother post about why I became disillusioned with the OTD world but the post would probably be too looong....)

Please make that post. I'd love to read it.

I know that my mother is OTD for emotional and not rational reasons, however much she'd like to deny that that's the case. However, I still need to fight her influence in my mind.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 2:58 pm

I came to judaism because I believe the explanation that HaShem created this world and gave rules for people how to LIVE better. So according to those rabbis who I love listen to (they MO) it’s all - for us. And Yom Kippur is also for us. And “davening”- tfila they explain as our work, also for our character and ourselves. They say that in Hebrew it’s “judging yourself” . And not some kind of sacrifice to HaShem or even a cry for help. This is the only rational explanation that I can accept . Otherwise I would not be trying to live by the Torah now. I also don’t believe that HaShem needs our prayers or even we can make a deal with him or really cry so much that he listen.
Yesterday I read a beautiful article about Yom Kippur from one of my favourite rabbi , he is orthodox by the Halacha but very unorthodox in his thought. He says all those tfilot on Yom Kippur should be OUR own regrets . We should think on this day about what we did wrong and what we need to improve. WE NEED a day like this. It’s not a matter of working or not, it’s for our own good - to think and repent and make plans how to be better .
This is what HaShem gave us - a whole day of concentration on our mistakes and thought how to improve . This is impossible if one is working on that day.
And don’t say that you will do it later- we all know that it’s impossible to free a full day for repentance if it wasn’t in the Torah.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 3:54 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

It's very human to doubt religion.
I'm sorry, but many people aren't okay with the whole "Well I said it so it's true, so close your eyes and just believe".

When I was 10 I asked my teacher; if the christians think they are right, the muslims think they are right, and we think we are right...well who is really right? Can you prove who is correct? Are you telling me the billion christians out there; ALL of them are stupid idiots who don't think?

How do we know Hashem wrote the Torah?
How do we know G-d exists?
How do we know the Torah hasn't changed since G-d wrote it? Or it was edited by man?

We talked about these thing in my school, and I think every school should. These things have answers you know. And most people think a bit and ask themselves things like this.

Full stop please. If I can ask you what BY you went to or at the very least what general neighborhood it was in, because what you are describing just isn't true and I think you know it. Even if this did happen in your mainstream BY it's disingenuous to argue that these types of discussions are typical in a 5th grade class. I have a 5th grade daughter in BY this year. I have never heard of the concept of BY discussing how do we know hashem is real and the torah wasn't written by a bunch of people several thousand years ago.

My second point is that even adults who do study this and for example watch aish videos are getting a very poor sample and genuine understanding of the topic. The reason is simple. If republicans and democrats are arguing about their ideas, we will be able to hear full and thorough arguments about why each side believes they are correct and the other is wrong. This is patently untrue with religion. Aish hatorah and everybody else wouldn't dare to present why leading atheists and scientists believe what they do. For example Rabbi Kellerman (who I've watched and is brilliant) doesn't tell you the obvious rebuttal to his mass revelation proof. He argues his proof and his speech ends. It's the final word on the subject. Most people don't bother researching further (for 5 minutes) and learning why is this seemingly solid proof is rejected and in fact ridiculed by the masses.

Also, many of the answers to the hard questions require belief and faith in order to resolve. For example If I ask you had you been born to a different family in another part of the world you certainly would not be a frum orthodox woman. You'd be neck deep in one of the other religions no doubt learning about why they are right and everyone else is wrong. The only way to resolve this is to say that the neshama in shamayim chose this, and your neshama was at har sinia....ultimately it requires blind faith to say these things. We say hashem is kind and all merciful. This contradicts our common sense. We give answers that are not understandable that "we don't understand god". Fine, but don't try to tell me that on one hand we don't understand and on the other hand it makes sense and is rational.

sequoia

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 4:07 pm

Ok, this is getting weird.

I’m a convert [with a Jewish background]. I DID grow up with another religion. I was agnostic for a while. I’ve read Dawkins and Harris. I met Hitchens several times, and he was (and is) one of my favorite writers.

Seagreen, I’ve looked at your post several times, but I cannot see the point you are trying to make. There’s only one way of practicing Judaism? No one could possibly choose it? Education is bad? What are you trying to convey?

For me, as a geek/nerd, it’s nice to know that Judaism is so huge, complex, and multifaceted that there’s always something new to learn.

Right now on G-d Save Us From Your Opinion, there’s an interesting discussion about humor in the Tanach and Gemara. For example.

As for the fairly obvious point that every religion believes they’re right, I’m sure that’s occurred to every child. It’s not exactly controversial or mindblowing. And it’s easier for us than for others — we’re not just a religion, we’re an ethno-religious community. So the reply is just, “yes, there are lots of religions in the world, but we are Jews and they’re not for us. We don’t proselytize others, but neither do we convert to other religions ourselves.”

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 4:24 pm

sequoia wrote:

I'm simply trying to say that I think many of us act as if things make sense and are wrong for one of 2 reasons.

1. They simply grew up in a system that never even considered the possibility that maybe we are not correct in our beliefs. They don't ask or question because.....of course it's all true. The end.

2. Those that do take the time to study and look into proofs or ideas about why Judaism makes sense only go so far. Meaning they will listen to Rabbi YY jacobson (who I enjoy!) but they would never listen to Dawkins, Sam Harris, or Hitchens. So they are only repeatedly hearing one side of the argument. Hardly a way to get to the truth.

I think most of us -certainly not all- come from reason #1. I certainly did. Since I was bothered by many fundamental questions, I started researching things myself. I listened to both sides. I've listened to countless aish videos as well as "the other side". At this point in my life I regret delving into all this because it has left me confused. I am convinced the answers are all weak. We just don't really know. I wish I had never bothered researching. I have listened to most of the 25 lectures by rabbi YY jacobsons on emunah and I really don't think he answers any of the basic questions.

seeker

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 4:39 pm

sequoia wrote:

As for the fairly obvious point that every religion believes they’re right, I’m sure that’s occurred to every child. It’s not exactly controversial or mindblowing. And it’s easier for us than for others — we’re not just a religion, we’re an ethno-religious community. So the reply is just, “yes, there are lots of religions in the world, but we are Jews and they’re not for us. We don’t proselytize others, but neither do we convert to other religions ourselves.”

Doesn't occur to every child, largely because in many frum cultures they promote the belief that non-Jews are stupid/evil/crazy/whatever. This is why people end up thinking they're in crisis when they grow up and realize the world is not as simple as they were told to believe. If this makes them doubt the religion they were raised with, that makes sense. Underestimating students' brains is a huge flaw in education.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 5:25 pm

sequoia wrote:

But a short aish video is just entertainment.

You’d never say, “I watched some videos, now I’m a doctor.”

If something really interests you, you learn seriously. Would your husband be content with just listening to lectures, no matter how well-regarded the speaker?

And stop looking for “answers.” There aren’t any. There are only our efforts, and the hope that Hashem will judge us favorably.

This reminds me of a Soviet joke, “Why are you reading Questions of Literature [a magazine] and not Answers of Literature?”

In a totalitarian system, that joke arose organically. There are “supposed” to be answers to everything. But we don’t live in a totalitarian regime, except insofar as we are all mortal.

My issue is that I don't feel that religion is something you can do halfway. That's where I'm stuck. I live my life as a fully orthodox woman and follow all halacha, but question whether it's all real. It's odd actually standing in shul fasting and davening on Yom Kippur, and wondering if this is real.

You say to stop looking for answers because there aren't any. I'm willing to bet almost all the women on this thread are all-in with religion. They have zero doubts and are sure it's all true. I used to think they had the answers. Now I know that it's really because they've accepted everything and are (smartly) not looking for questions. So often (even on this thread) when people have questions about emunah or faith, people respond to listen to this or that rabbi. I don't think the people offering the suggestion actually have the answers. Like you said, there aren't any. I think that for example they've heard rabbi YY jacobson speak and they know he is an eloquent, articulate and dynamic speaker with hundreds of lectures. Surely the answer is somewhere in the hundreds of hours of lectures.

I'm also disillusioned because this came to me as somewhat of a shock. When I graduated high school I didn't have a doubt in my mind about anything. When questions first started coming up I was sure there would be clear and conclusive answers. Obviously I was disappointed when I realized that as you said, there are no good answers. This directly conflicts with the ani maamin we say every day about various beliefs that we believe beemuna shlaima- with complete and total faith. "Complete faith" and "there are no answers" don't exactly go together.

amother

Violet

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 5:31 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

I'm also disillusioned because this came to me as somewhat of a shock. When I graduated high school I didn't have a doubt in my mind about anything. When questions first started coming up I was sure there would be clear and conclusive answers. Obviously I was disappointed when I realized that as you said, there are no good answers. This directly conflicts with the ani maamin we say every day about various beliefs that we believe beemuna shlaima- with complete and total faith. "Complete faith" and "there are no answers" don't exactly go together.

I think this is where your issue lies. You are disillusioned because you relied on the fact that there would be good answers, just as you're now assuming that the women on this thread are doing.

Actually, most of us, struggling or not struggling with emunah, are in a better place because we know that there are no conclusive answers, and we are not disillusioned by that fact. I didn't think there were perfect answers when I was 16, and I certainly don't believe so now.

Actually, "complete faith" and "there are no answers" are exactly harmonious. Faith and knowledge are often direct opposites. We have faith.

I learned this in seminary- I wish I knew what the source was. Emunah comes "b'makom shekalah sechel ha'adam" - at the exact moment and extent when a person's sechel ends. The ultimate avodah is coming to a place where the rational knowledge, faith, and emotional connection are in harmony and in sync. Obviously, this is a lifelong work.

amother

Brunette

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:07 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

DH is slowly feeling less spiritually connected. After YK today he asked me- what is the pojnt of it all. Does Hashem really care about work being done on YK. I sdaid, well if he worked on YK then Hashem would have found a way for him not to work- like the computer breaking. He asks me what is the point of it all- Hashem is omnipotent, omniscient omnieverything- what does he need our tefillot for.. are we his little puppets, dolls that he put in this world with rules to follow and then what happens- you die and then your soul floats around until techias hamasim and if you are not resurrected, then you don't know the difference and if you are you serve Hashem- why does Hashem need any of that....

I have no answers and I don't even know of a Rav who could give him a satisfactory answer.. we are starting that midlife point in our lives and things you never thought about are coming up...

I grew up with a BY mentality, serve Hashem, be a good person, be good to others, Reach out to Hashem when you need him. Look for the little miracles and hashgacha pratis in life.. take each day as a gift.. DH's questions are scary for me to think about.
DH is already not feeling the Yiddishkeit love and does things because he has to... I worry what the next step is- how do I help...

The reason we are here is to EARN olam habba.
That’s the point of it all.
Fill your wallet as much as you can for as long as you can, bec when your time is up it’s all over, and you get rewarded for what you earned as is. You can only “shop” in olam habba with reward for mitzvot and maasim Tovim. That’s the currency.
Each year on the yahrtzeit there’s a new evaluation and you can get upgrades (aliya l’neshama) based on what you earned that past year. Q. How can you earn?
A. 1.Any mitzva your child or grandchild did over the year you also get rewarded for. 2. Any mitzva others did on your behalf. But if they’re not a descendant they have to say specifically that it’s to benefit your so and so’s Neshama.
Don’t waste time. Life is only 80-90 yrs max for most ppl......

amother

Peach

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

You’re right that you don’t have the answers for him, and telling him that Hashem would break his computer so he wouldn’t work on YK is nonsense. He needs to be put in touch with a rabbi with a strong background in OTD people, who will answer all his questions in a comprehensive, more understandable way. Has he always been like this, or is he only lately starting to back off yiddishkeit?

amother

Peach

Thu, Oct 10 2019, 7:12 pm

1ofbillions wrote:

I respectfully disagree with the recommendation to listen to Rabbi Ashear’s content. As a person who’s struggled with similar questions as OP’s husband since I was 10, his approach really turns me off. It’s all emotional and not evidence based. Yes, sometimes awesome things happen after someone has faith they’ll happen, but many times they don’t, and then what? IMHO he’s only inspiring to people who don’t think deeply.

I don’t want to take this thread off topic, so if you disagree then please start another thread. Just want to prevent the OP from advising her husband to listen to this rabbi’s speeches, thereby turning him even more cynical, which is what happened to me.

On a different note, it is healthy and normal to doubt religion. It is evidence that your husband is a thinking, authentic person; not just a product of society’s norms. Religious observance is a journey with ups and downs per to Rav Dessler - that’s how humans were created. I wish you and your husband lots of success on your journeys. This is what makes life meaningful! Smile

With all due respect, just because you didn’t like Rabbi Ashear, it’s a very big assumption on your part (and a WRONG ONE) that everyone else is. He helped me tremendously and there’s a reason why he’s such a popular speaker and author who sells millions of his Emunah books. Your advice is not helpful.