When to pronounce the shvah and when not

creditcards

Sat, Oct 26 2019, 11:21 pm

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

Are you asking what the rules are, or how to get them across to your daughter?

Both.

I tried checking the rules online and they don't seem to match the way we are reading it.
This is for a girl that has autism. I want her to be able to daven and say tehillim and I'm working very hard to teach it to her.

seeker

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:14 am

Personally I'd go with Artscroll and other siddurim that put a line over the ones you need to pronounce (you also need to teach to always pronounce at the beginning of a word; they don't put the line there.) I think it's good and helpful to know the rules but if it's going to cause headaches and hardship then it's very skippable. And even if you do teach it, it's also good to use Artscroll etc as a backup, especially since some of the rules are practically impossible to keep track of (kamatz gadol, anyone?!)

creditcards

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:27 am

seeker wrote:

OK so she understands rules. I can teach her rules.
I taught her that a shvah in the beginning of the word to always pronounce. Also that if there are 2 shvas by end of the word both are silent. If there are 2 shvas in middle of the word the first one is silent second one not. Then 2 of the same letters and the first one has a shvah you pronounce it. Also if the letter has a dugish then you say the shvah.
And the rest of the shvas are silent? This is what I am having trouble with. When I read or I hear reading in shul they mostly don't pronounce the shvah besides for the times I said above. I see online that it depends what nekuda it's after but in reality I see everyone doesn't pronounce it.
How do you know if a kametz is gadol or kuton?

seeker

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 3:20 am

Except it's only SOME kamatzes.

I basically learned all this in first grade and then promptly forgot everything except the beginning of the word. Picked a few back up later in life. Relearned it all better and more organized when my kids were doing it in school - I felt like a pro. Then they got to that last "rule" which Thanks described, and that's where I threw up my hands and said this is why we have Artscroll.

amother

Coral

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 9:56 am

creditcards wrote:

עֵדְוֹתָיו
וּמְקֻבּל
וּקְדוֺשִים

How do you pronounce these Shvas?
It shows that its silent (I'm reading from An artscroll type) but the rule says that It should be pronounced?

Just want to mention (assuming you know, but maybe someone else does) that the first word is pronounced
Eidvosav. (Not eidosav)

Teach your daughter the rule that every single ketter must have one and only one nekudah, besides for a letter at the end of a word and the letters alef, vav, yud, which don't always have a nekudah (Alef like in rishon, yud like in lefanav...)I

This rule will help with the shin/sin dot that sometimes acts as a cholam for itself, and sometimes as a cholam for another letter.

goodmorning

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:57 am

It's important to teach that the rules are a good starting point, but they are incomplete and subject to some controversy. And that some words manifest contradictory rules. For example, it's worth noting that the "end of the word" shva nach rule trumps the "letter with a dagesh" shva na rule with the result that a shva at the end of a word is always nach, even if it is under a letter with a dagesh -- for example, the word אַתְּ

The actual rule with regard to tenuah gedola is that a shva after an unaccented tenuah gedola is nach but a shva after a tenuah gedola that has the trop on it is nach (because it is a closed syllable). To the best of my knowledge, that is the explanation for the עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ / ְעֵדְוֺתָ֔יו occurrences).

It is somewhat controversial, but a vov with a shuruk at the beginning of a word (where it is replacing a shva) is generally considered a tenuah ketana. A shva following such a vov would be nach, hence the second and third examples that you gave. A particularly contentious word is וּבְשָׁכְבְּךָ in Shema, where there is a difference of opinion as to whether the first shva is na or nach.

(Another example of an exception to the tenuah ketana/gedola rule is that after a hey hayedia, the next letter usually gets a dagesh chazak and the shva under that letter is na. Often, if the first letter is a mem, the dagesh disappears but the shva remains na. Hence the shva na in הַמְברָךְ and לַמְנַצֵּֽחַ.)

I teach my children the rules but also caution them that the rules are insufficient to predict the pronunciations of all shvas and that they should use a siddur with marks over the shvas. (Case in point: it was my DC 5.5 who pointed out the shva na in הַמְברָךְ and asked about it.)

goodmorning

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:05 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Just want to mention (assuming you know, but maybe someone else does) that the first word is pronounced
Eidvosav. (Not eidosav)

Fun fact: the mnemonic פרץ בן דמה is used to keep track of the pesukim in Tehillim 119 in which it is pronounced eidvosecha instead of eidosecha:

פ: פְּלָא֥וֹת עֵדְוֺתֶ֑יךָ עַל־כֵּ֝֗ן נְצָרָ֥תַם נַפְשִֽׁי׃
ר: רַ֭בִּים רֹדְפַ֣י וְצָרָ֑י מֵ֝עֵדְוֺתֶ֗יךָ לֹ֣א נָטִֽיתִי׃
ץ: צֶ֖דֶק עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ לְעוֹלָ֗ם הֲבִינֵ֥נִי וְאֶחְיֶֽה׃
ב: בְּדֶ֖רֶךְ עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ שַׂ֗שְׂתִּי כְּעַ֣ל כָּל־הֽוֹן׃
ן: נָחַ֣לְתִּי עֵדְוֺתֶ֣יךָ לְעוֹלָ֑ם כִּֽי־שְׂשׂ֖וֹן לִבִּ֣י הֵֽמָּה׃
ד: דָּבַ֥קְתִּי בְעֵֽדְוֺתֶ֑יךָ יְ֝הוָ֗ה אַל־תְּבִישֵֽׁנִי׃
מ: מִכָּל־מְלַמְּדַ֥י הִשְׂכַּ֑לְתִּי כִּ֥י עֵ֝דְוֺתֶ֗יךָ שִׂ֣יחָה לִֽֿי׃
ה: הַט־לִ֭בִּי אֶל־עֵדְוֺתֶ֗יךָ וְאַ֣ל אֶל־בָּֽצַע׃

Of course, you can just look for the shva before the cholam with no need for a mnemonic. Smile

creditcards

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:12 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Thanks, this is very helpful. I didn't learn these rules in school. My school wasn't so makpid on dikduk.

creditcards

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:19 am

goodmorning wrote:

Thanks for your helpful information.
Can you explain the bolder a little better?

creditcards

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:24 am

goodmorning wrote:

Can you help me out with this too? What is the mnemonic and what is the rule about the shva before Cholim? Is there a rule for that too?

Thanks!

goodmorning

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:33 am

creditcards wrote:

Can you help me out with this too? What is the mnemonic and what is the rule about the shva before Cholim? Is there a rule for that too?

Thanks!

The word "Your laws" can either be written as עֵֽדֹתֶ֨יךָ (in which the cholam is the nekudah on the dalet and pronounced eidosecha) or, more rarely, as עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ, in which there is a shva nach under the dalet and the cholam is a nekudah on the vav, pronounced eidvosecha. The mnemonic keeps track of the eight times that the latter occurs, but you don't need the mnemonic -- just check if there is a shva under the dalet.

cheerios

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:56 am

creditcards wrote:

Thanks for your helpful information.
Can you explain the bolder a little better?

If you look in a siddur you will see some komatzes have a small vertical line near the komatz. That means it's a tenuah gedolah and the following shva is na.
The hint to know if it's a tenuah gedolah is the nekudos of the phrase פיתוחי חותם. (Chirik with yud, shuruk, tzeirei, cholam and komatz gedola)