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When to pronounce the shvah and when not
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iyar




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:06 pm
Creditcards you are awesome!
May your daughter's tefillos be heard and answered in the best possible way for herself, for you and for all klal Yisrael.
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creditcards




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:11 pm
cheerios wrote:
If you look in a siddur you will see some komatzes have a small vertical line near the komatz. That means it's a tenuah gedolah and the following shva is na.
The hint to know if it's a tenuah gedolah is the nekudos of the phrase פיתוחי חותם. (Chirik with yud, shuruk, tzeirei, cholam and komatz gedola)


Then why is the word עֵדְוֹתֶךָ a silent shva if its after a tnuah gedolah?
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creditcards




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:13 pm
iyar wrote:
Creditcards you are awesome!
May your daughter's tefillos be heard and answered in the best possible way for herself, for you and for all klal Yisrael.


Amein!

Thanks you! That's was nice of you!
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:15 pm
You need to use an aleph- bina that uses A LOT of practice. Practice Practice Practice

There’s one that the cover is white green and orange, can’t remember the name.
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creditcards




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:24 pm
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
You need to use an aleph- bina that uses A LOT of practice. Practice Practice Practice

There’s one that the cover is white green and orange, can’t remember the name.


I am practicing a lot with her. I Just need to make sure I have the rules down pat before I tell her anything because once I tell her something, there is no changing OR saying I made a mistake the rule is like this.That would be disaster for her. I made that mistake when I taught her mapik hey.

Yes I remember that aleph bina from when I was little. Do they still sell them? I haven't seen It around.

I'm working on this for a few years already. She is finally upto here. She can read simple words. I'm only having an issue getting her to focus and look at the word. She takes a 5 minute break between each word. Any solutions to that? She gets a treat after each word too.
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iyar




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:48 pm
I’d let her take the break. Maybe you want to introduce the words in a different way, out of the siddur. Make signs and surprise her one morning by taping (use painter’s tape) a sign on the kitchen wall that says מטבח, a sign on the milk that says חלב, on her chair כסא, on her coat מעיל. Don’t ask her to read. See if she notices and tries reading them on her own. She might like that. If she does you can continue to surprise her with signs all over the house, or hang up pictures, a flower, a cat, a horse, with the words underneath. You might motivate her to read on her own, and you’ll also be showing her how all those hard to decipher symbols actually represent things in her life.
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goodmorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 12:57 pm
creditcards wrote:
Thanks for your helpful information.
Can you explain the bolder a little better?


Sorry, I missed this earlier.

A shva that follows a tenuah gedola is generally a shva na. But there are many exceptions to this rule, particularly when the letter receiving the tenuah gedola is accented.

For example, a cholam chaser is a tenuah gedola and a shva that follows a letter with a cholam chaser is generally na. But in the phrase קָטֹ֜נְתִּי מִכֹּ֤ל הַחֲסָדִים֙, the shva under the nun is a shva nach (despite following the cholam chaser of the tes) because the tes has an accent/ta'am over it.

I am far knowledgeable about te'amim, but I suspect that that is what is occurring in the words עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ / ְעֵדְוֺתָ֔יו.

I am very sympathetic to your predicament, because it would be nice to have 100% knowledge of all shva pronunciations, but the truth is that it is more complicated than just memorizing five rules. (I am a bit perplexed about all the posters calling for practice, because you need to know the rules before you can practice them, and your post is about understanding the said rules. But the five rules will get you pretty far, and your goal should probably be to practice them and then defer to a siddur with good shva markings for the rarer exceptions.)
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goodmorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 1:03 pm
Also, totally off-topic, but if you're collecting dikduk rules, you may want to teach that a hey or ches with a patach at the end of the world are pronounced as ah and ach, respectively, and not ha and cha. For some reason, this is usually well-taught in the case of a ches (think this week's parshas -- it's Noach, not Nocha), but the hey analog is less frequently taught correctly. (For example, contrary to BMG's spelling, the word גָּבֹ֖הַּ is read as Govo-ah, not Govoha. Similarly, Hashem's name אֱלֹהַּ is pronounced Elo -- ah (mapik heyed) and not Eloha.)

It's called a patach genuva.
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goodmorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 2:39 pm
goodmorning wrote:
Sorry, I missed this earlier.

A shva that follows a tenuah gedola is generally a shva na. But there are many exceptions to this rule, particularly when the letter receiving the tenuah gedola is accented.

For example, a cholam chaser is a tenuah gedola and a shva that follows a letter with a cholam chaser is generally na. But in the phrase קָטֹ֜נְתִּי מִכֹּ֤ל הַחֲסָדִים֙, the shva under the nun is a shva nach (despite following the cholam chaser of the tes) because the tes has an accent/ta'am over it.

I am far knowledgeable about te'amim, but I suspect that that is what is occurring in the words עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ / ְעֵדְוֺתָ֔יו.

I am very sympathetic to your predicament, because it would be nice to have 100% knowledge of all shva pronunciations, but the truth is that it is more complicated than just memorizing five rules. (I am a bit perplexed about all the posters calling for practice, because you need to know the rules before you can practice them, and your post is about understanding the said rules. But the five rules will get you pretty far, and your goal should probably be to practice them and then defer to a siddur with good shva markings for the rarer exceptions.)


And now that I tried to find these elusive te'amim and failed, I checked an Artscroll Tehillim and it has a shva na given for עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ. If you have a source that says otherwise, this is probably one of the (many) machlokos in this area.
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creditcards




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:09 pm
goodmorning wrote:
And now that I tried to find these elusive te'amim and failed, I checked an Artscroll Tehillim and it has a shva na given for עֵדְוֺתֶ֥יךָ. If you have a source that says otherwise, this is probably one of the (many) machlokos in this area.


I wonder if its a typo or really a machlokes.
Now I'm wondering if I should bother teaching her all the rules or I should just buy her a siddur with marks on top of the shvah. My daughter that goes to regular school never learnt all these rules.They somehow glossed over It. My husband doesn't know it either. They all just make up what they think sounds correct and Read the wat they want.
I tried doing flashcards with her. It was a little easier for her.
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Ruchel




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 28 2019, 5:33 am
I think many schools don't dig down that much
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