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Forum -> Fashion and Beauty
If you started to wear pants...
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:24 pm
If you grew up skirts only and started to wear pants as an adult (after marriage):
How did you grow up (hashkafically)?
How did you come to that decision?
Did your husband have an opinion/reaction?
Did you have to deal with reactions/judgment from others?

I have a position in our community where I could never get away with making the change, regardless of what the actual halacha is (or how some women’s pants are inarguably more modest than skintight pencil skirts), but a girl can dream...
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itsmeima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:44 pm
Culottes are quite trendy and tznius’dig.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:45 pm
I went the opposite direction, in high school.

I think this decision has ramifications far beyond the significance of the actual decision. It places you and your family in a category. I can easily see wanting to change and not doing it because you don't want all the other things to change.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:47 pm
.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:49 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
I went the opposite direction, in high school.

I think this decision has ramifications far beyond the significance of the actual decision. It places you and your family in a category. I can easily see wanting to change and not doing it because you don't want all the other things to change.

I agree.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 5:59 pm
I agree with salmon. I'm a bt so different situation, but I have friends I became frum with that became more yeshivish and I became more modern and they won't eat in my house even though I keep fully kosher (and they ate in my house before I married and started wearing pants more often). It made me a little sad but I've accepted it (I don't invite them to parties though). I fit in my community, but those old friendships have suffered. Unless the community you're in is more accepting or liberal, you may face those kinds of issues. People make a lot of assumptions about dress.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:22 pm
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
I agree with salmon. I'm a bt so different situation, but I have friends I became frum with that became more yeshivish and I became more modern and they won't eat in my house even though I keep fully kosher (and they ate in my house before I married and started wearing pants more often). It made me a little sad but I've accepted it (I don't invite them to parties though). I fit in my community, but those old friendships have suffered. Unless the community you're in is more accepting or liberal, you may face those kinds of issues. People make a lot of assumptions about dress.

I wouldn’t eat in your house but I’d still love you as a person.
Why?
It’s simple. Wearing pants in public is against halacha.
Eating / cooking non kosher is against halacha.
If you blatantly dress proudly and in public against halacha, how can I trust that you are careful with the kashrut halacha in your kitchen?
I still respect you as a person, but can’t trust you in matters of halacha.
I’m writing theoretically of course, I don’t refer to you yourself or anyone else specifically.
Just explaining my feelings.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:32 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
I wouldn’t eat in your house but I’d still love you as a person.
Why?
It’s simple. Wearing pants in public is against halacha.
Eating / cooking non kosher is against halacha.
If you blatantly dress proudly and in public against halacha, how can I trust that you are careful with the kashrut halacha in your kitchen?
I still respect you as a person, but can’t trust you in matters of halacha.
I’m writing theoretically of course, I don’t refer to you yourself or anyone else specifically.
Just explaining my feelings.


Is this true according to all orthodox rabbis? Even very modern orthodox?
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itsmeima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:34 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
I wouldn’t eat in your house but I’d still love you as a person.
Why?
It’s simple. Wearing pants in public is against halacha.
Eating / cooking non kosher is against halacha.
If you blatantly dress proudly and in public against halacha, how can I trust that you are careful with the kashrut halacha in your kitchen?
I still respect you as a person, but can’t trust you in matters of halacha.
I’m writing theoretically of course, I don’t refer to you yourself or anyone else specifically.
Just explaining my feelings.


Seriously! Ouch. Wearing pants may be against your ”halacha” not the halacha.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:37 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Seriously! Ouch. Wearing pants may be against your ”halacha” not the halacha.


Exactly. It's against the way the rabbanim she follows interpret halacha, and therefore she would be concerned that maybe they have different kashrus standards as well. Makes perfect sense.
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itsmeima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:43 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Exactly. It's against the way the rabbanim she follows interpret halacha, and therefore she would be concerned that maybe they have different kashrus standards as well. Makes perfect sense.


Nice try! You can't compare Kashrus to Tznius.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:47 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
I wouldn’t eat in your house but I’d still love you as a person.
Why?
It’s simple. Wearing pants in public is against halacha.
Eating / cooking non kosher is against halacha.
If you blatantly dress proudly and in public against halacha, how can I trust that you are careful with the kashrut halacha in your kitchen?
I still respect you as a person, but can’t trust you in matters of halacha.
I’m writing theoretically of course, I don’t refer to you yourself or anyone else specifically.
Just explaining my feelings.


I know that's the rationale, but I've never really understood that line of thinking. If we were close friends (and there was a level of trust from the friendship) and I understood your kashrut stringencies, I don't know why trust would be based on my observance of other mitzvot and not on the trust of our friendship. There are plenty of people who dress in a very outwardly frum manner and sin privately. I can't base my trust on attire. There has to be a level of trust when a fellow Jew invites you to her house and tells you she keeps kosher. If you accidentally ate the wrong hechsur would it be your aveirah? What if you did "research" and the person who served you the wrong hechsur was wearing full tsnius attire?
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:52 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Seriously! Ouch. Wearing pants may be against your ”halacha” not the halacha.

Not true.
It’s against halacha.
Go ask your LOR 😊
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:53 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
Is this true according to all orthodox rabbis? Even very modern orthodox?

Yes. It’s against halacha.
Tzniut is halacha.
Skirts are not just a minhag or a chumra.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:57 pm
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
I know that's the rationale, but I've never really understood that line of thinking. If we were close friends (and there was a level of trust from the friendship) and I understood your kashrut stringencies, I don't know why trust would be based on my observance of other mitzvot and not on the trust of our friendship. There are plenty of people who dress in a very outwardly frum manner and sin privately. I can't base my trust on attire. There has to be a level of trust when a fellow Jew invites you to her house and tells you she keeps kosher. If you accidentally ate the wrong hechsur would it be your aveirah? What if you did "research" and the person who served you the wrong hechsur was wearing full tsnius attire?


Even if accidental, eating something not kosher has a detrimental effect on a person. I grew up MO (am now yeshivish), and I know that often those with certain standards of dress follow certain standards of kashrus. These may not be my standards. Nothing personal towards you, but I might not be comfortable eating at your house. It’s not that I think you’re not trustworthy.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:58 pm
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
I know that's the rationale, but I've never really understood that line of thinking. If we were close friends (and there was a level of trust from the friendship) and I understood your kashrut stringencies, I don't know why trust would be based on my observance of other mitzvot and not on the trust of our friendship. There are plenty of people who dress in a very outwardly frum manner and sin privately. I can't base my trust on attire. There has to be a level of trust when a fellow Jew invites you to her house and tells you she keeps kosher. If you accidentally ate the wrong hechsur would it be your aveirah? What if you did "research" and the person who served you the wrong hechsur was wearing full tsnius attire?

I’ll give you an example.
In shidduchim I want my in law kids to come from homes who keep taharat hamishpacha properly. But I would never check anyone’s bedroom. If a family is shomer shabat I am confident that they are also good in that regard.
It’s a sign.
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tweety1




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 6:58 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Exactly. It's against the way the rabbanim she follows interpret halacha, and therefore she would be concerned that maybe they have different kashrus standards as well. Makes perfect sense.

I love this! So well explained.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 7:03 pm
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
Even if accidental, eating something not kosher has a detrimental effect on a person. I grew up MO (am now yeshivish), and I know that often those with certain standards of dress follow certain standards of kashrus. These may not be my standards. Nothing personal towards you, but I might not be comfortable eating at your house. It’s not that I think you’re not trustworthy.

Exactly. I might decide to ask you to keep my jewelry for me while I’m out of town, bec I trust you as a PERSON. But not in something that involves Halacha, because you obviously arent careful enough .
Like, if I see you walking into your house at midnight each night without pressing a combination lock or turning a key in your lock, I would NOT want my kids to sleep over in your place. Bec to me, that’s not careful enough.
(I have a neighbour like that, I love her as a person but wouldn’t leave my kids to sleep there and go out of town. They simply don’t lock their doors. At least not until very very late, I don’t know bec I don’t sit at the window to keep track , but def noticed , whenever I happen to see them walk in,it’s never locked)
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 7:05 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Nice try! You can't compare Kashrus to Tznius.

Why not?
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Oct 27 2019, 7:12 pm
itsmeima wrote:
Nice try! You can't compare Kashrus to Tznius.


Why not?
We have all kinds of Halachic obligations. Some - like TH - I can’t tell if you’re careful with, and that’s the way it’s meant to be. Some - like tznius or Shabbos - you show people in public whether or not you’re observant. If you’re not, I’m not passing judgement, I’m not thinking poorly of you, but I might not be comfortable eating a home cooked meal at your house since we seem to have different priorities.
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