Is high school-level math really important?

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:52 pm

I'm a hs math teacher and probably not going to be for too much longer. One of the many reasons is that I just cannot justify to myself why it's important that my students know the material that I'm teaching.

Trust me, I know that it's supposed to teach logical reasoning. But a) there are plenty of people who are pretty good at logical reasoning but are terrible at math, b) many people get through life just fine without strong logical reasoning skills-and those are often the people who didn't do well in math in high school, and c) math is really hard for most people, so they're not learning the reasoning skills that it's supposed to teach, anyway.

Even great math teaching is usually either just teaching to a test, which doesn't really teach math, or attempts to teach students reasoning skills that are way above most of their heads.

So, as a math teacher who loves math, convince me: why is it important to teach high school level math? Why is it considered such an essential part of the curriculum?

(Note: I'm not talking about percentages, arithmetic, fractions, or the like. I'm talking about Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus, and Calculus.)

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 10:59 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Depending on the type of kids you're teaching this may or may not be true.... but many college degrees and careers will in fact use this math. For the rest, not so much.

Really?

Name me five careers that truly need mathematics, and give me the percentages of students that actually go on to said careers.

The only ones I can think of are data analytics, programming, and possibly architecture.

A lot of fields require statistics, but you don't need to have learned all that high school math. You need to have learned statistical concepts, many of which are not even properly taught in high school curricula.

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:05 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Engineering, astronomy, medicine....? I'm sure there are plenty. Again, I have no idea the crowd you're teaching.

Public inner city high school.

But even if I were teaching at the best high school in the city- what percentage of students in the U.S. are going into such fields that it is a universally required subject that makes up 50% of the SAT, and determines so much of students' academic futures?

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:12 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Actuaries.
Engineers (includes chemical, mechanical, physical, electrical, and so on).
Scientists (including chemists, physicists, biologists, and so on).
Computer programmers / data scientists / and so on.
Assorted jobs in finance (e.g. financial analysts).

Obviously, math is much less necessary for a career in liberal arts. But since STEM fields are the highest-earnings fields these days, on average, I'd personally want my children to have the necessary background to enter a STEM field if they so desire. Which means taking HS math.

(Also, to an extent it is irrelevant how much math is actually used each day in a career if that math background is a required prerequisite. Many computer science degrees, for example, require calculus, often several semesters of it. Many programmers will never use calculus over their career lifetimes. Yet said programmers would have been unable to obtain their job and their degree without those courses, and the necessary HS math background. Were those HS courses a waste of time? Absolutely not. They prepared students for the college courses that enabled their degrees and jobs.)

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:19 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

From what I can tell, the only one of those careers that is actually widespread among even a decent minority of the population is programmers. Maybe certain finance jobs.

Okay, so people who are interested in those kinds of careers, or have shown that kind of aptitude, can continue in the math classes. But requiring everyone to take so many years of math, and making the curriculum harder and harder, while also putting such high stakes on it? Is it really necessary?

It seems to me that there has been an undue emphasis put on math when it's a difficult subject for the majority of the population, and most people don't end up needing it, even in college. They pass their one token math class and finished.

amother

Plum

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:19 pm

I think you can kind of say this about most high school subjects. How many fields require you to remember the facts of various conflicts fought in different regions of the world hundreds or thousands of years ago? Science too, if you're not going into a science related field.

I think the theory is that we want to expose kids to various things to give them an opportunity to decide where their interests lie and what they excel in. Also, school is a unique opportunity to learn subjects that they may not ever have again.

There are good reasons why inner city teachers have a high burnout rate, so I feel for yuo. Is there a way that you can make the material relevant to them on a personal basis? Or funny or interesting stories that ca help demonstrate the material?

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:25 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I agree, but I think math is the most egregious.

Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it. And not to understand the political climate in this country at all. There has been a significant shift in the NY history curriculum towards more modern history and current events. Obviously there's a strong liberal slant to it, but the point is that learning history is supposed to inform the present.

Many more students will have careers in science, which makes it much more necessary. Also, it is a subject in which many more students feel successful than in math.

It's pretty clear that writing is a necessary skill in most careers, if only to be able to draft a coherent e-mail.

Ask any group of students what their favorite subject is. The majority will say English. Some will say history or science. A scant few will say math.

When I tell people that I am a math teacher, the first words out of most of their mouths are "I hate math" or "I'm not good at math" or "I can't do math." It's a socially acceptable thing to be bad at math.

As far as the burnout- I'm going to switch careers soon IY"H. I'm just riding out this year, collecting my paycheck but with no heart in it anymore.

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:34 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

I think the reason people feel comfortable saying they are bad at math is because so really bright people can be bad at math.
Other subjects not so much. If someone says they are bad at history, it just means they have a bad memory and dumb.

That makes sense- but that just reinforces my point: if even really bright people struggle with math, why is there such a strong emphasis?

Am I wrong in the assumption that most people who will be pursuing a career that truly requires advanced math classes will be pretty aware of that by the time they hit 9th-10th grade?

If that is the case, why teach it to everyone? Why require anything beyond maybe a basic Algebra class?

(Part of this is a vent of frustration at how difficult the Common Core math Regents questions are to explain to students who would have struggled with the previous Integrated curriculum.)

amother

Plum

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:38 pm

Yet on the flip side, when someone says they are good at math I assume they must be very bright!

As for the other subjects, I could debate that. I think it's important to know general world history and basic science just to be a well-rounded person, but for sure I spent hours of my life studying and memorizing useless material.

Unfortunately my own math education is probably around an 8th grade level, and trust me I take no pride in saying this, so it's hard to comment. But what I can see from my high schooler (who I am completely unable to assist with any questions), it seems the material is very logic-based. I would think that teaching kids, whose brains are still developing, to learn logical-reasoning is a good skill, even if they don't use the actual math.

Hatzlocha with your next career move

amother

Green

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:38 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't know anything about common core or regents.

really bright people don't struggle with highschool math.

amother

Tan

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:40 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I’m a software engineer with many years experience Worked with batteries, pharmaceuticals, military. I use little to no math. I know many programmers and software engineers and most of us use little advanced math.
You need the math to pass the college courses to get the degree.

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:41 pm

People feel comfortable saying that they are bad at math because they believe the fallacy of "inborn ability" (I.e., they think that it's all about being born good or bad at math, as opposed to mathematical ability being a malleable trait that improves with hard work). Combine that with stereotype threat (for women and racial minorities) and you have the perfect "I'm so bad at math" storm.

If you accomplish one thing this year, it should be to disabuse your students of these notions. Smile

amother

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:45 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

Let me tell you something, though.

I came into the profession truly believing that. I really thought that growth mindset could overcome anything. I believed that it was all about the mindset.

But I've seen just the opposite. I've seen the students who are working so hard, who really believe they can do it, who put in the work- and come up empty.

I see the students with the inborn ability succeed, and almost all the others fail (or barely pass, as the Common Core standards for passing are less than 33% of the exam).

amother

Maroon

Sun, Oct 27 2019, 11:47 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Im in the medical field. Ive never once encountered a situation where I needed to use the type of math OP is talking about. Never.

Me too.

My daughter is currently struggling through AP calculus, which school is making her take as she was strong/accelerated in math and took Algebra in 8th grade and they have a 4 year math requirement.