 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
DrMom
|
 Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:32 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | Not necessarily.
I just checked my son's homework and I don't think he's being taught common core, so I'm not really familiar with the whole method; I'm responding only to the above example.
There can be many ways to solve any given math problem. That's actually one of the things that I really like about math, and that I really find so cool, that you can solve a problem in a few different ways and still come up with the same answer  .
From what I'm understanding from this thread, they are trying to get the students to understand the logic behind the math they are doing. I'm wondering if they have geared their curriculum to be age appropriate, as from what I understand, higher level thinking/logic/abstract skills may not develop until a child is older. Forcing them to use non-existent skills to solve problems would be very, very frustrating, I would imagine.
The way math has always been taught, was that children were taught basic arithmetic by rote and drill, and it was only when they got older that they were taught higher level math such as algebra and trigonometry. In fact, when my parents were young there were two tracks in high school, and only one track took higher level math. This, to me, seems to be more aligned with common sense.
Personally, I think the best way to teach logical thinking is to have really bad math teachers. Then the kids will have to figure things out completely themselves, and wouldn't that certainly hone their thinking skills? Good math teachers, in my experience, break down the math so that almost anyone can do it, as long as they are capable of following instructions (which means pretty much anyone). You don't even need to understand the concepts behind the math at all in order to do ok on tests. So I guess this is going back to teaching math badly - develop your thinking skills and don't rely on the teacher!!! |
This strikes me as a terrible idea, esp if the kids are not very motivated, or are very young.
| |
|
| Back to top |
 2
|
Mommyg8
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:34 am
| DrMom wrote: | | This strikes me as a terrible idea, esp if the kids are not very motivated, or are very young. |
Of course it's a really terrible idea, maybe I wasn't clear. If you have to figure it out on your own, it does develop logical thinking skills, but 90% of the students would never get there. It's really a terrible idea.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
JoyInTheMorning
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:52 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | What you are describing is number sense, which is the single most important skill that elementary and early middle school math classes are supposed to develop. Understanding the interplay of numbers. Place value. Decimals. Fractions. Estimation. Properties of integers. Properties of operations (commutative, associative, identity, distributive properties...) This is what so many students are lacking and the biggest reason that they struggle with high school math. |
Yes, number sense, thank you.
They need number sense, but they also need the ability to do the standard arithmetic and pre-algebra methods very quickly in order to progress to high school math. That is the secret to math success: getting to that point where one can successfully and nearly effortlessly solve problems at level n before going on to level n+1. Level n+1 will nearly always present enough conceptual difficulty that if kids are still devoting time and effort to level n material, they will have cognitive overload at level n+1. It just won't work. That is why a lot of drill is so crucial, at every level.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
cbsp
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:56 am
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | Yes, number sense, thank you.
They need number sense, but they also need the ability to do the standard arithmetic and pre-algebra methods very quickly in order to progress to high school math. That is the secret to math success: getting to that point where one can successfully and nearly effortlessly solve problems at level n before going on to level n+1. Level n+1 will nearly always present enough conceptual difficulty that if kids are still devoting time and effort to level n material, they will have cognitive overload at level n+1. It just won't work. That is why a lot of drill is so crucial, at every level. |
Thank you for clarifying. I thought you meant that number sense should replace drill. There's a necessity for both.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
JoyInTheMorning
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:57 am
|
Also, waiting until school to teach kids number sense is just waiting too long. I found that taking little kids to the supermarket is a great exercise. Mommy has twenty dollars to spend on vegetables and fruit. We need to get green beans, lettuce, cantaloupe, and apples. Green beans are $1.99 a pound. That's close to $2, so let's think of it as $2, and maybe we'll have a few pennies extra. Should we get three pounds? How much will we have left over? Apples are $1.49 a pound.That's close to $1.50. What happens if we get four pounds of apples? How much will we have left? And then continue. Still better if there's a scale where you can weigh your food as you go along, so that kids get a better sense of what four pounds of apples or three pounds of green beans look like.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
JoyInTheMorning
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:58 am
| cbsp wrote: | | Thank you for clarifying. I thought you meant that number sense should replace drill. There's a necessity for both. |
Of course. Number sense is enhanced by drill.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
|
amother
Emerald
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 12:10 pm
The schools are starting to realize the need for drills and automaticity. A few years ago, the administration explicitly told us NOT to have students memorize multiplication facts, the theory being that once they understood the concept behind it and were proficient with repeated addition and whatnot, they would automatically know them. Obviously this didn't happen so now they have unofficially given us the go ahead on this.
That's just the way educational trends go. When I was in college all of the professors who hadn't been in the classroom since the 80s and they heyday of whole language were pushing invented spelling and word walls, phonics was a bad word. They were so out of touch. Then phonics came back on because the deficits were just too obvious to ignore anymore.
Educational trends swing back and forth on a pendulum. I give common core a few more years.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:37 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | From what I'm understanding from this thread, they are trying to get the students to understand the logic behind the math they are doing. [b]I'm wondering if they have geared their curriculum to be age appropriate, as from what I understand, higher level thinking/logic/abstract skills may not develop until a child is older. Forcing them to use non-existent skills to solve problems would be very, very frustrating, I would imagine. [b]
The way math has always been taught, was that children were taught basic arithmetic by rote and drill, and it was only when they got older that they were taught higher level math such as algebra and trigonometry. In fact, when my parents were young there were two tracks in high school, and only one track took higher level math. This, to me, seems to be more aligned with common sense. |
This is the single biggest issue with Common Core: it's not age-appropriate. Abstract thinking skills do not develop until a child is older, but much of the curriculum expects advanced thinking in middle school.
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | [b]Personally, I think the best way to teach logical thinking is to have really bad math teachers.[b] Then the kids will have to figure things out completely themselves, and wouldn't that certainly hone their thinking skills? [b]Good math teachers, in my experience, break down the math so that almost anyone can do it, as long as they are capable of following instructions (which means pretty much anyone). You don't even need to understand the concepts behind the math at all in order to do ok on tests.[b] So I guess this is going back to teaching math badly - develop your thinking skills and don't rely on the teacher!!! |
This is what most Bais Yaakovs consider good math teachers. In public school, teachers are supposed to be honing thinking skills and not making math rote memorization. It's a great idea in theory, except it's taken way too far with the idea that students will construct their own knowledge using guided inquiry. That is mostly unrealistic in math, except with advanced and motivated students.
A truly superior math teacher is one who can actually help students understand the theory so that they don't need to memorize steps, but that is almost impossible to find, for several reasons. First, many math teachers don't have the advanced knowledge to be able to teach the theory, since they only know the skills through the rote practice that they were taught. Also, with high-stakes testing, there's too much pressure to cover ground to be able to explore each topic in-depth. The original purpose of Common Core was less breadth and more depth, but they completely messed that up by testing on an enormous amount of material. Third, most students are missing the number sense required to truly understand the depth of a topic so that they don't need to follow rote procedure.
Another point, Mommyg8: since you didn't learn Common Core, you don't necessarily know how the material is tested nowadays. I'm linking in the most recent June Algebra I, Geometry, and Algebra II Regents exams. Many of the questions are at a level where a teacher could not have possibly just taught the student to the test in such a way that they could answer the question correctly. They need to have the depth of understanding.
https://www.nysedregents.org/a.....m.pdf
https://www.nysedregents.org/g.....m.pdf
https://www.nysedregents.org/a.....m.pdf
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:39 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | Yes, number sense, thank you.
They need number sense, but they also need the ability to do the standard arithmetic and pre-algebra methods very quickly in order to progress to high school math. That is the secret to math success: getting to that point where one can successfully and nearly effortlessly solve problems at level n before going on to level n+1. Level n+1 will nearly always present enough conceptual difficulty that if kids are still devoting time and effort to level n material, they will have cognitive overload at level n+1. It just won't work. That is why a lot of drill is so crucial, at every level. |
Yes, that is a point I've tried to make many times. 90% of the students I teach and tutor do not know their multiplication and division tables, and still cannot do basic addition and subtraction without their fingers. Forget about integer arithmetic or operations with fractions.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:40 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | | Of course. Number sense is enhanced by drill. |
I think that this is completely ignored by the current educational philosophy.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:41 pm
| amother [ Emerald ] wrote: | The schools are starting to realize the need for drills and automaticity. A few years ago, the administration explicitly told us NOT to have students memorize multiplication facts, the theory being that once they understood the concept behind it and were proficient with repeated addition and whatnot, they would automatically know them. Obviously this didn't happen so now they have unofficially given us the go ahead on this.
That's just the way educational trends go. When I was in college all of the professors who hadn't been in the classroom since the 80s and they heyday of whole language were pushing invented spelling and word walls, phonics was a bad word. They were so out of touch. Then phonics came back on because the deficits were just too obvious to ignore anymore.
Educational trends swing back and forth on a pendulum. I give common core a few more years. |
It swings back and forth because the textbook companies and testing companies need to make their money.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
DrMom
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:06 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Yes, that is a point I've tried to make many times. 90% of the students I teach and tutor do not know their multiplication and division tables, and still cannot do basic addition and subtraction without their fingers. Forget about integer arithmetic or operations with fractions. |
Why are these students allowed to enroll in high school? How are they graduating from elementary school?
In my day, students who did not demonstrate minimal proficiency in reading, writing, and arithmetic were held back.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
|
amother
Emerald
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:25 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | It swings back and forth because the textbook companies and testing companies need to make their money. |
It's more than that, it is whoever is spending big $ on government lobbying.
For example Bill Gates funded the common core initiative, but he makes a lot of money from the reliance on technology in education now. Plus, a lot of governors backed it (#1 was Jeb Bush because he wanted it to be his signature political success he could point to when he ran for president), for their own political gain.
Bottom line, it came about through greed for money and power from powerful people who really have nothing to do with education. I'm sure the textbook and testing companies gave money as well for lobby groups, but they were not the biggest of the players in this debacle.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:27 pm
| DrMom wrote: | Why are these students allowed to enroll in high school? How are they graduating from elementary school?
In my day, students who did not demonstrate minimal proficiency in reading, writing, and arithmetic were held back. |
To make politicians look better.
Because you cannot fail 80% of a school.
Calculators.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
|
amother
Emerald
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:32 pm
I really mainly hold the Bush family accountable for this, lol
George for NCLB
Jeb for CC (he was the one who forced it to happen, he probably would have owed so many favors to Bill Gates if he had become president that it would be scary)
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:33 pm
| amother [ Emerald ] wrote: | It's more than that, it is whoever is spending big $ on government lobbying.
For example Bill Gates funded the common core initiative, but he makes a lot of money from the reliance on technology in education now. Plus, a lot of governors backed it (#1 was Jeb Bush because he wanted it to be his signature political success he could point to when he ran for president), for their own political gain.
Bottom line, it came about through greed for money and power from powerful people who really have nothing to do with education. I'm sure the textbook and testing companies gave money as well for lobby groups, but they were not the biggest of the players in this debacle. |
Okay, I guess you have the bigger picture.
My point was that it was about political gain and profit, not true educational research or the welfare of students.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
nchr
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 3:38 pm
|
Showing your work is also about teaching children the skill because they will need it for more advanced math later in life. It is creating a habit. It also allows a teach to gauge a child's understanding of the concepts. Children who have difficulty showing their work may have issues with authority.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
Tzippy323
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 5:11 pm
|
Just throwing in my two cents, but you all keep mentioning the common core. Has anyone realized that starting next year we are using the next generation learning standards? Perhaps you should go to engage your.org and check out some of the changes.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
|
amother
OP
|
Wed, Oct 30 2019, 5:13 pm
| Tzippy323 wrote: | | Just throwing in my two cents, but you all keep mentioning the common core. Has anyone realized that starting next year we are using the next generation learning standards? Perhaps you should go to engage your.org and check out some of the changes. |
The Next Gen math standards have very few changes from the Common Core standards. It's basically their way of saying, we changed stuff, but we really changed nothing.
Also, EngageNY has just about the worst math curriculum anyone ever wrote.
| |
|
| Back to top |
2
|
| Related Topics |
Replies |
Last Post |
|
|
Yeshivish: Are high school girls getting talk only? Or text?
|
6 |
Sun, Apr 21 2024, 3:08 pm  |
|
|
Find me a school!! Urgent!
|
75 |
Wed, Apr 17 2024, 11:58 pm |
|
|
School in Brooklyn Focused on Middot Tovot
|
19 |
Tue, Apr 16 2024, 11:27 pm |
|
|
Rockland Country on High Alert of Potential Attack
|
1 |
Sun, Apr 14 2024, 10:23 pm |
|
|
School kimcha d'pischa, would you give in this situation?
|
20 |
Fri, Apr 12 2024, 2:37 pm |
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
