Is high school-level math really important?

Laiya

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 8:52 pm

cbsp wrote:

Ok, somehow I missed this so I'm going back to comment.

I guess according to the condescending narrator I'm disqualified to comment since I've been brainwashed by the old method.

But I'm commenting anyway.

As a math major I agree 100% that the kids should learn that there is a "why" behind the recipe.

But you know what? That cutesy narrator has a really proficient adult hand and brain quickly filling in the answers to all the extra steps.

That same adult also can figure out the best alternative method to use when figuring out a problem.

Take the kids just starting to write, just starting to learn - each digit they need to write is a labor of love, now they are confused because yesterday's method is so different than today's method and which do I choose? Maybe I need to do all 3? or 4? And even those steps that seem to fill themselves out magically still require the child's thought process.

So now it's 45 minutes later and 2 out of 10 or so problems have been completed. And no math has been achieved at all. Lots of frustration, though.

It's like they forgot there's supposed to be a forest but wow, we really like this one tree, look at the pretty leaves.

THIS. THIS. Cbsp, have you been hiding in my house during homework time??

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:08 am

nchr wrote:

Showing your work is also about teaching children the skill because they will need it for more advanced math later in life. It is creating a habit. It also allows a teach to gauge a child's understanding of the concepts. Children who have difficulty showing their work may have issues with authority.

It may, but in many cases (and in my son's case for sure), it's because the math comes so naturally to them in their head that they don't even consider it work. They didn't consciously go step by step to solve the algebraic equation or whatever it was...it's so intuitive that they don't even think they are doing work.

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:17 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I used to be the same way and chafed at the idea of showing my work. However, I did it while gritting my teeth, and it served me well later in school.

Students who have a habit of working through problems in their head tend to make more careless mistakes and have problems with precision that are difficult to rectify. They don't even know where they went wrong, since they can't retrace their steps.

Showing your work is actually very important. It may be intuitive, but the whole point is to be able to articulate why it is intuitive. That is a true understanding of math.

nchr

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:22 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I agree with this as I am like this as well, but following directions is also a skill. Even if it is intuitive, you can still have the decency to humor the teacher and follow directions. A child who doesnt do that has other behavioral issues. It's extremely disrespectful and problematic.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:42 am

nchr wrote:

I have a fair share of children and I can state unequivocally that this child BA"H has no behavioral issues or issues following directions. He aims to please. He's a good kid and does well in school (and will do fine in this class too, once he gets there). He does have a hinderance when writing (speed wise, a chisaron that is definitely noted by teachers....but teachers who know him fargin him for not really taking many notes because he learns better just listening, and he performs worse if he has to spend time writing...and then loses points in the next class for being tardy, but I digress...)
This is a new teacher and I'm sure they will find their groove. School just started a few weeks ago! He's doing fine otherwise. But I can pretty much ascertain him not writing something like:
7=x+5
7-5 = x
2=x
(or whatever math they are actually doing in 8th grade Wink

I hope beyond this!)
is not due to not wanting to follow directions but rather because he didn't process any computation consciously. He is known for being a whiz at computation, and he can take a look at that and automatically see x=2.
This teacher doesn't realize it....yet. He will. (I hope. If he is any good.)

Again, I need to emphasize that this kid of mine is really well loved in school by all teachers and administrators and is known for being a good kid. He's all around the type of student schools want to have (not a teacher's pet, but very well balanced in his interactions with peers, his sense of humor and yes occasionally a prank on a teacher in good fun, sometimes is a little talkative but well within reason....and the main complaint teachers have is really his speed at written work. Totally no authority issues.)

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Totally agree with this.

I always did math in my head, and most of the time, if you would have asked me how I got the answer I would not have been able to explain, as it was sort of intuitive. And like you, I did make a lot of careless mistakes!

I am really grateful for a really strict math teacher who made us show work very, very clearly (if you put a circle around your answer instead of a box she marked you wrong - if you had this teacher you know who I mean!); it taught me discipline, and it was very helpful later on when I had to do more advanced math equations.

I'm not comparing myself to you, OP, I do not have a math degree and I do not teach math. Just putting in my two cents as a regular gal!

ETA: Hashem_Yaazor, even if you can do the math in your head, you still have to learn to follow the rules.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:32 am

Of course you have to follow rules. The problem is that you don't even realize it was "work" to show.

L'mashal: if someone asked me to show work on how I translated a word in Ivrit to English and I was fluent in Ivrit, I might not realize there was work to show the prefix and shoresh and suffix because it was just so obvious. Does that make more sense? If it takes a brain a fraction of a second to process something, it's not perceived by that individual to be work that needs to be shown.

If I didn't explain it clearly, oh well. I'll just drop it now. But I think a lot of people aren't understanding what I am trying to convey. And it might be because I can't show my thought process well enough Wink

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:41 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Totally agreed and he shows his work quite a bit of the time and as I said can explain 6th grade math to his younger sister. He has quite the way with words and is very good at explaining.

The problem is for easier things when he didn't realize he did any work (I have a feeling that that worksheet wasn't really much of anything complex vs the other assignments he's been getting As on and I assume has been showing his work...)

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:50 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I hear you. That's where the teacher's mathematical understanding should come in, so long as there's some work shown.

Also, the teacher should be showing your son what work she expects to see on his paper when doing certain types of problems. That way he knows what steps to show, even if he totally wouldn't have realized that they're even steps that he does.

I can look at bare minimum work and figure out what a student's thought process is.

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:56 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

The teacher should be showing him that this is the work she wants to see. That way, even if it's intuitive for him, he'll follow the process. When you get to more complicated equations, such as ones with distribution, variables on both sides, combining like terms, etc., you need to be able to actually demonstrate the inverse operations. Otherwise, a careless mistake is inevitable.

I remember when my teacher first showed us this kind of equation and forced us to write out the steps. I used to moan and complain and roll my eyes about it. She got upset at me since she felt that if I didn't do it, others would follow my lead, and they really needed the practice. But I grit my teeth and did it, and then was glad I got into the habit as we started learning more complex equations. It helped me a lot with minimizing careless mistakes.

When I took the Algebra I Regents, I found several careless mistakes that were easily traceable because I had shown my work.

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Again, I need to emphasize that this kid of mine is really well loved in school by all teachers and administrators and is known for being a good kid. He's all around the type of student schools want to have (not a teacher's pet, but very well balanced in his interactions with peers, his sense of humor and yes occasionally a prank on a teacher in good fun, sometimes is a little talkative but well within reason....and the main complaint teachers have is really his speed at written work. Totally no authority issues.)

I disagree with the poster who said it's an authority issue. It's simply a smart kid who's five steps ahead. A really good teacher would have challenge work for him to try to learn more advanced material where he actually DOES need to work through it step-by-step.

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:00 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

That was me until 8th grade. I'd fly through an assignment or exam, finish in five minutes, and make the most careless mistakes you can imagine... (2x3=5, anyone? Wink

)

Mommyg8 wrote:

I am really grateful for a really strict math teacher who made us show work very, very clearly (if you put a circle around your answer instead of a box she marked you wrong - if you had this teacher you know who I mean!); it taught me discipline, and it was very helpful later on when I had to do more advanced math equations.

I totally, totally hated those types of teachers, but I can hear how the strictness worked.

Mommyg8 wrote:

ETA: Hashem_Yaazor, even if you can do the math in your head, you still have to learn to follow the rules.

Yes and no. I used to find a lot of elementary and middle school math largely a waste of time because it was too simple. In 7th grade, we had a whole quiz on converting fractions to decimals and percents. I finished before the teacher finished passing out the quiz, since I knew the conversions of 9 of the 10 examples from experience with numbers (like .125 is 1/8 is 12.5% or .1 with a bar on top is 1/9 is 11.1%). We didn't need to show our work for that, but had we needed to, it would've been dumb. I finished before she even finished passing out the paper. Clearly I understood it and knew how to do the conversions.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:59 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

He was offered to take higher level math but said there was no point as he'll be going to yeshiva next year and he won't be given options of what math to take, so there was no point. I agree with him. He's fine. Just a new math teacher after having the same math teacher in the past in middle school, with a new method of teaching and a new textbook curriculum, and he'll get in the groove. It was one assignment out of many. I don't perceive there to be a year-long issue.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Some of your examples (like 2x3=5) are the type of things there is no work to be shown.
So in longer solving multi-step problems, that might come up earlier and you can correct a wrong answer if work is shown...but if the problem given was not really so multi-step, it's harder for a fast computer (I mean person who computes!) to realize he did steps and think of showing work.

Anyway, this is a long way aways from your original post Wink

Just some of my frustration with math teaching in the moment that I posted my post.
I actually find the new textbooks (really, they were older from 2013 but school went back to them and got more of them) to be more similar to math of my youth (still meeting CC standards technically but without convoluted languages and processes...the standards don't dictate those, just many publishers decided to use sample language and change their whole curriculum).

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:24 pm

I didn't bother to read all 10 pages. Wink

IMHO, Common Core has sucked all the fun and sense of accomplishment out of math. I remember when math came in chapters. One chapter was addition, and when you had mastery in that, you went to subtraction, then division, then fractions, then geometry, etc. You got a really solid grasp of what you were doing, and only then did you move on to the next unit. All this bouncing all over the place is not only confusing, it's downright infuriating!

Now for your question about is math really important? In my high school "wisdom", I thought "I don't need math, I'm going to be an artist!" LOL

I want to sew a dress, but the pattern calls for a certain number of yards, and the fabric comes in meters. I'll also have to size up the pattern, so how do I make allowance for the extra fabric?

An even better one, I showed this problem to DD. I went to a wholesale bead supply website. We found some beads that were very pretty. First problem, how many beads are in a gross? Divide the cost of the minimum order by the number of beads, and then you'll have the cost per bead. How many beads do you need for each necklace. Can you mark up the necklace for retail, and still make a profit? Could you use more expensive, fancier beads and still have buyers, or do you need to go with less expensive beads to appeal to more people?

I also had DD help me figure out how to cut a recipe in half, and to double it.

Once I dropped one of my prescription pills on the floor, and we were looking for it. It was small because I had cut it in half. I said "Ugh, can you believe these things are $3.00 a pill?" and 6 year old DD pipes up with "That's $1.50!" I was so proud of her. Very Happy

I still hate math, but it definitely is important. I'm not fond of hammers either, but there are times when it's handy to have the right tool for the job.