Are we harming our children by segregating them?

Rappel

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:04 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

This.
I grew up secular, and my kids are MO. I only knew one pregnant girl in our high school of 2000 pupils.
None of my kids' friends got pregnant that I know of.
I find it hard to believe that someone knows several girls who got pregnant, unless we are talking about uneducated girls in the slums.

It's an imamother "several." LOL

"I know several XYZ" = "I once heard a rumor about someone, and there were probably other contributing factors, but I think I sound more authoritative this way... Anonymously."

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:07 pm

I knew MO girls who got pregnant. I also knew plenty who ended up in difficult situations regarding physicality, which I imagine are pretty typical: being convinced to do things they didn't want to, not saying no because they didn't know how or thought it was a normal thing everyone did and they should too even if it didn't feel right, getting talked about to his friends.

I don't want my kids to have to deal with that- physicality reserve to a married relationship is a good thing. And even the emotional side of dating and relationships is a lot for kids that age, and can come with lasting effects. So talking in passing, I'm for. Relationships, no.

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:13 pm

To add, I personally know two girls who got pregnant. One "disappeared"/transferred, and one got an abortion (yes, I know that for a fact, or at least that'swhat she told me, and then she clearly wasn't pregnant anymore. ) Another girl did not get pregnant but had a breakdown over a pregnancy scare. All in one medium sized MO coed high school while I was a student there.

Raw

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:19 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Where does the Torah recommend that? Also- sorry, but I don't believe that you know even one person brought up "modern" (assuming you mean modern orthodox) who ended up pregnant.

Thank you, exactly. The only girls I know who didn’t understand that you could be friends with boys and still have boundaries were the ones from super segregated environments.
And if your kids feel the need to lie and sneak around for little things, they don’t often stop at the bigger things.

amother

Emerald

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:29 pm

I'm Chassidish, but playing with neighbors / cousins of the opposite gender was normal until age 10 , for sure bar mitzvah everything stopped.
If my 10 yr old dd would casually chat /play with a child her age, I would definitely not say anything, she's a casual, innocent type, and I feel that the more I talk about it, the more she'll think into it, and I don't think it can benefit her.
I think these "friendships" gradually phase out. I doubt any real Chassidish /yeshivish kid had any long term damage from hanging around the opposite gender at a young age.

keym

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:30 pm

I think it's all about balance and normalcy.
My kids are being raised in a segragated environment from preschool. Separate classes, clubs, groups, etc.
But in never had to police behavior. My 5 year old boy plays with the girls on the block.
But as they get older, they naturally stop. However when my 12 yr old son is hanging out with his friends in my living room, my 14 yr old daughter will shmooze with her brothers friends for a bit.

Family is not segragated at all. Chanukah party or Purim seuda with 30-50 people is not officially separate. The kids group themselves with friends which naturally means my 14 yr old daughter will sit and hang out with her girl cousins between 12-16 and my 12 yr old son will have no interest in sitting with them.
But my kids play board games, shmooze about books, look at zoo animals (when we go to the zoo) with their opposite gender cousins all the time.
Just Pesach, my 14 yr old daughter played Risk for 4 hrs with my 12 yr old son, and 12, 14, and 16 yr old nephew's and we were fine.

If I lived in a culture where kids couldn't say hello to their uncle or male cousin, I would have a problem with it.

ShishKabob

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:32 pm

keym wrote:

I agree with this entire post. I wouldn't dream that the gender segregation that is being talked about here includes not saying hello to an uncle or cousin. That is way out of my realm of gender segregation.

amother

Red

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:00 pm

First, I live in a liberal MO community. The only "MO" high school girl I know who got pregnant was so far OTD that the derech wasn't even a blip on her horizon. Think bring treyf pizza into the house on Yom Kippur OTD.
And I know that because she's my niece.

Most kids tend to self-segregate themselves into single-gender groups at a certain age, while still interacting with kids of the opposite gender. This is healthy and normal. I should mention that even at that age, my closest friend was a boy. Then again, we played dolls together just about every day.

I do think that rigid gender segregation in the teenage years is a bad idea. Its not natural, and doesn't allow boys and girls to view each other as real humans. It leads to the objectification of others in shidduch dating. If you don't know about talking to girls and enjoying their company in a platonic way, how are you going to know to look for something in a spouse other than appearance?

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:03 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Where does the Torah recommend that? Also- sorry, but I don't believe that you know even one person brought up "modern" (assuming you mean modern orthodox) who ended up pregnant.

ITA. The only person I know who had a 9-lb “premature” baby less than 9 months before her wedding happened to be a charedi woman on her second marriage. When there’s a will there’s a way.

I believe that gender-segregated schooling is better for girls because studies show that in coed classes boys get more attention, get called on more, and volunteer more than girls. I know that I was more confident and active in my gender-segregated classes than in coed ones.

But social segregation isn’t so great. With charedi men in business situations I’m very self-conscious, aware of being female but not in a good way, feeling “less than,” feeling like an interloper. Not so with men who are from mixed-gender societies. Even when I’m the only woman or one of the few women in a room full of men, I’m not half so uncomfortable (as long as the conversation and decor remain clean. Machine shops papered with centerfolds are a different story. )

amother

cornflower

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 2:08 pm

keym wrote:

With such threads, we need to clearly define what's being discussed. We're a group of women from all over the world and gender separation is enacted in so many different way. As with everything, there are many pros and cons to it, but a happy medium with boundaries in place works best. Growing up like I did, with my uncles and first cousins never saying hello or even acknowledging my presence, doesn't help either gender in any way. Its detrimental if anything. Nowadays, I can walk past my male cousins or uncles and neither of us would recognize the other unless with close scrutiny. Isn't that sad?

But a healthy environment, that allows family interactions and some occasional exchanges between the genders would be a healthy balance. It would teach some basic life skills and would give each gender some basic insight to the other.

Ima4therecord

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 4:00 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I grew up MO and now see myself as more to the right so constantly thinking of how to approach this issue with my kids bezh in the future. This seems like a very healthy approach. If you make something a big deal many times then it becomes a big deal. Better to see if things phase out before making it any type of issue, especially at a young age. And I think it's healthy to have some practice of speaking with the opposite gender in non-threatening situations like this for practice for the future..

PinkFridge

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 4:23 pm

Raw wrote:

Thank you, exactly. The only girls I know who didn’t understand that you could be friends with boys and still have boundaries were the ones from super segregated environments.
.

Call me super segregated but the boundaries have to be much sharper than same gender friendships. To the degree that the friendship will be pretty superficial.

amother

Gold

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 4:27 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I think it’s never a good idea to second guess what the Torah recommends. I know people brought up “modern” were boys and girls were mixing freely and several girls ended up pregnant as teenagers. That’s rare among those who keep the proper boundaries according to Torah. It’s just the way of life.

You must know an awful lot of people to know several people who got pregnant.
I went to Ramaz, camp Moshava IO, had friends at Yeshiva of Flatbush, HAFTR, and Frisch, not to mention all the assorted MO camps.
Have siblings who went to SAR. My friend's children went to Frisch between the time my siblings graduated HS and my children started. Mine graduated from Frisch......
I have never known anyone or even rumor-mill of anyone to have gotten pregnant. And people like to gossip, so trust me, it there was anything happening, people would have talked.
The only rumor I heard of anyone ever getting pregnant was a Monsey couple (it takes 2-it's not just the girl) and they went to single gender schools.
Not saying that it caused it, maybe they were just OTD kids, but yeah. (And that rumor has been substantiated-my BIL knew the guy-they got married).

My point is not to debate whether or not the segregation is good or bad for the kids. My point is that I find it ludicrous that on this site, instead of discussing concepts, it becomes let's dump on MO and talk, out of our derrières, about how horrible and non-halachick they are.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 4:52 pm

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

This is not caused by being MO, and it is not caused by mixed schools.

These things happen because parents do not teach their boys to respect girls and pay attention to cues that the girl is not happy with the physical contact or zexual teasing.

These things happen because parents do not teach their girls how to stand up for themselves, too defend their boundaries, and to clearly say "no" if they mean no.

Just as young children should be taught about body safety, telling an adult, and screaming "NO, DON'T TOUCH ME!", so should teens. All parents should be teaching bodily autonomy to their kids as early as possible, like age 2 or 3, and continuing the conversation in an age appropriate way as they grow up.