Are we harming our children by segregating them?

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 2:18 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

This is not caused by being MO, and it is not caused by mixed schools.

These things happen because parents do not teach their boys to respect girls and pay attention to cues that the girl is not happy with the physical contact or zexual teasing.

These things happen because parents do not teach their girls how to stand up for themselves, too defend their boundaries, and to clearly say "no" if they mean no.

Just as young children should be taught about body safety, telling an adult, and screaming "NO, DON'T TOUCH ME!", so should teens. All parents should be teaching bodily autonomy to their kids as early as possible, like age 2 or 3, and continuing the conversation in an age appropriate way as they grow up.

Not disagreeing. But the opportunities for these things to happen are a lot more frequent when boys and girls regularly socialize and date/form relationships. Once that's happening, it's going to happen a lot, despite education, because teens are teens, and there are a lot of factors and deficiencies at play.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 2:23 pm

My children played with the opposite gender when they were younger. Between age 2-3.5 one of my children's favourite friends was the opposite gender, but then within a few months they really segregated on their own naturally. They didn't enjoy each others' company anymore, and were into completely different things.

I've noticed that in most cases boys and girls, even if close friends, began to have misunderstandings and play differently around 3 or 4, and certainly by 6 or 7.

But there are exceptions. And it's difficult to know when to say something or when to let it go. For instance one of my daughters at age 8 made friends with a boy a couple years older than her who was staying with neighbours of ours for a week one summer. I wasn't entirely comfortable with the relationship for two reasons. They were spending a lot of time together, and became very overly familiar imho. We're pretty Haredi, but in this case I reasoned best to let things slide, being that the boy was only visiting, and I didn't want to make my daughter feel bad. After all the boy's relatives could mention something to him- why should the burden to segregate necessarily fall on the woman? Eventually the boy went back home, and everything went back to normal, without me having to say a word, Baruch Hashem.

Laiya

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:24 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

It's not just pregnancy.
My immediate reaction is, are we harming our children by not segregating them. Carefully though. Think of Mystics Merrymakers and Mavericks (I think that's the order).

This (though I'm not familiar with the book)

It's not only about pregnancy. It's about putting kids into stressful, confusing, possibly painful, unnecessary situations that hamper the development of their self-identity and confidence. Since pregnancy was mentioned, I'm not referring to 10 year olds obviously

amother

Salmon

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:15 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I would treat this the same way, in those circumstances, but why are you seeing you/your daughter as marginalized? Responsibility belongs to the MOTHER/FATHER/ADULT/GUARDIAN who prefers segregation. Nothing to do with being female.

DrMom

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:25 am

Laiya wrote:

Mixing with the opposite gender hampers self-development and confidence?

How so?

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 3:35 am

I can only speak for myself, but, coming from a secular background, I went to secular, non-Jewish co-ed schools throughout. I don't think it left any lasting damages. Starting in primary school and for sure in secondary school, girls formed girls' groups of friends and boys stuck to their own kind. Of course during the teenage years some girls and some boys started flirting and going out with each other. In a non-Jewish secular school that's expected and acceptable. We had even lessons on how to prevent unwanted pregnancies and diseases. But some pupils, including me and my 4 closest friends, just knew to keep off the boys. None of us had a boyfriend. We stayed out of the flirting business. And there were boys as well who stayed off these things. It's a matter of how one is being raised at home and of personal outlook, I think. Even teenagers have some capability of self control. As far as confidence is concerned - I got good marks at school. Not top of the class, but okay. I never felt that the boys got preferential treatment. The by far best of the class was a girl, by the way.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 3:37 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

I knew MO girls who got pregnant. I also knew plenty who ended up in difficult situations regarding physicality, which I imagine are pretty typical: being convinced to do things they didn't want to, not saying no because they didn't know how or thought it was a normal thing everyone did and they should too even if it didn't feel right, getting talked about to his friends.

I don't want my kids to have to deal with that- physicality reserve to a married relationship is a good thing. And even the emotional side of dating and relationships is a lot for kids that age, and can come with lasting effects. So talking in passing, I'm for. Relationships, no.

I was just talking to someone who deals with adoptions in Israel and she actually said that the newest "type" of child to be adopted is from unwed charedi girls.
Being MO does not mean kids are going to be promiscuous and being charedi does not mean they wont.
I went to MO schools and camps and lived in MO communities as I do now in Israel as well. I never heard of any girl getting pregnant, ever.
So please, dont make this be about the "evil" MO people and the "angel" charedi people. Its just not like that.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 3:45 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

NO no no no. When boys and girls interact with each other from a YOUNG age, it just becomes what is normal. Im telling you, you are seeing things not how they are. Males and females interacting does NOT always produce seedy happenings. Really. Sometimes (Im going to say, most of the time) it is just that, people interacting with each other.

Personally, I think how deeply separated male and female interaction has gone to in some communities is very harmful.
Most kids self segregate at a certain age but then self join with the opposite gender again on their own. ANd I think its a good thing.
My daughter was in 1-3 grade with boys. It was actually very good for her. I was actually sorry that there are no co ed dati schools in our area after that grade.

Sake

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 3:57 am

Of all the things we do to our kids, I think this is the least harmful.

I won’t get into a debate on the topic but am only commenting be it was funny for me to see this thread this morning.

There is something going on in the community I grew up in and last night I connected with a guy my brothers went to school with. WhatsApp was getting hard so we called each other. As soon as I answered he said Have we ever talked?? I’m 45 and he’s 50 and we knew each other our whole lives with him staying at our house and meals etc and we had never said any words to each other.

The whole conversation was fine and funny and sad and deep and reminiscent and oddly despite the crazy upbringing we had, we are both healthy and balanced and fine and could talk as if we had been doing it our whole lives.

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 5:22 am

I hear you, OP. But I grew up in a different world, where boys and girls were NOT separated, and I can tell you that there were a TON of problems. I grew up Mennonite (very seriously Christian), so the problem wasn't lack of G-d or lack of morals, or anything like that. Just the fact that boys and girls were allowed to be friends, hang out, etc, and boundaries weren't so clear created ISSUES. From what I see in the from world, the problems are much less than in the world I grew up in. And compared to the secular world (which I lived in for more than 10 years) -- WOW, what a disaster they have over there!!!

One of the reasons I chose to convert to Orthodox Judaism is because I agree about separating genders. I think it would have helped my life and the life of many to have such strong boundaries.

Of course, I do sometimes feel like it's a bit ... much. But then, I stop and think about the alternative, and the fact that ... the problem is that you have to have a strong boundary, or you end up with an unclear line that moves, which is tantamount to no boundaries at all. I didn't read the whole thread, but that's my two cents:)

urban gypsy

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 8:37 am

DrMom wrote:

Mixing with the opposite gender hampers self-development and confidence? How so?

I think it can in the educational sense
I believe single-gender education is a positive thing
It allows kids to participate in class without worrying about how they are perceived by the opposite gender and removes some distractions
In the social sense, if romantic stuff is pushed too early by the peer group it can take a toll on self-development and confidence I think, but it definitely depends on the culture

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 9:37 am

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I think it’s never a good idea to second guess what the Torah recommends. I know people brought up “modern” were boys and girls were mixing freely and several girls ended up pregnant as teenagers. That’s rare among those who keep the proper boundaries according to Torah. It’s just the way of life.

I grew up completely secular like nothing to do with religion whatsoever. Nobody in my class got pregnant before the age of 27 (we still keep in touch) and there was only 1 girl in the whole school who got pregnant at 16.

If teenagers have the option to be open and honest with their parents and they're not afraid to tell them when they messed up (I kissed that guy, don't know what got into me) then there wouldn't be as many teenage pregnancies.
I had 2 guy friends we slept over at eachothers place all the time, even slept in the same bed and nothing ever happened. We were like brother and sister and no it's not only me who says that. They said that aswell, they had girlfriends so I was really just a friend.
I loved that they weren't drama queens like my female friends.

Chayalle

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 9:42 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I don't know if it's just me, but I would be VERY wary if a visiting boy a couple of years older would be hanging around my 8 year old DD.

I wouldn't expect a boy's relatives to protect my child. I would consider that to be MY responsibility.

Raisin

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 9:45 am

urban gypsy wrote:

I was going to say read Mystics, mavericks and merrymakers. Its a study of girls in the Chabad community. She comes to a lot of those conclusions.

urban gypsy

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 9:48 am

Raisin wrote:

I was going to say read Mystics, mavericks and merrymakers. Its a study of girls in the Chabad community. She comes to a lot of those conclusions.

I have read it! It's a good book
But this has nothing to do with religion per se
Lots of secular educators have come to the same conclusions re: segregated private school education

NurseK

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 9:51 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I had 2 guy friends we slept over at eachothers place all the time, even slept in the same bed and nothing ever happened. We were like brother and sister and no it's not only me who says that. They said that aswell, they had girlfriends so I was really just a friend.
I loved that they weren't drama queens like my female friends.

Reminds me of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA
A guy goes around interviewing college aged boys and girls, asking if guys and girls could be just friends (no romantic or s*xual feelings). The guys mostly say no way and the girls say for sure. But then at the end he asks the girls- would the guy want to hook up if you would let him? and every girl says yes, probably. Hotpink, I wonder if you asked those guys what their thoughts were as you slept in the same bed if they would be honest with you... unless of course you were a kid (under puberty age)

In general I think the benfits of being segregated outweigh the risks.. the "risks" being some social ineptitude and the small fraction that go to the other extreme unfortunately.

sequoia

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 10:27 am

You can definitely sleep in the same bed and it won’t *cause* attraction, but if attraction is there, something is more likely to happen than walking down the street in broad daylight.

Someone I know slept in the same bed with a female friend of his for over a month when she had nowhere to stay, and he said he never even had the urge to hug her. He had a girlfriend he was in love with.

I’ve shared a room with a man for a few weeks and we didn’t have any physical contact.

Men aren’t attracted to every woman they know.

But anyway this is all irrelevant for little kids. Why not let 8-year-olds play board games? So messed up...