Getting a jewish annulment as opposed to a get

amother

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 8:54 pm

My sister was discussing this with me.
An acquaintance of hers got this. Cz she was unable to get a get from her estranged husband.
I imagine it’s quite controversial but know nothing about it.
Does anyone know if this is considered a good halachig alternative to get?

I told her an expert rabbi in this field should be consulted. She didn’t disagree but I wanted to know more myself. Can anyone here shed any light?
Or tell me name of rabbi they know would endorse?

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 10:31 pm

It all depends on the circumstances. Did one of them have an issue they hid from the other before the wedding? Like an illness or an addiction?

Sometimes it is also done so she can marry a kohen.

A very prominent well known rav pushed another prominent less well known rav to annul a marriage a few years ago, and lost lots of respect over it. But I know a friend who also was annulled by the same rav, and is now married with kids, bh.

Rappel

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 10:35 pm

The biggest issue with an annulment, AFAIK, may be the status of any children. Does it also mean that any time this couple was together, then it is now considered out of wedlock? I don't know.

Even with both those considerations, it may be preferable in some circumstances.

tichellady

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 10:40 pm

Annulments aren’t just done, there has to be a valid reason for a Rav to do one. One spouse must have been tricked or not told something about something about the spouse before the marriage ( that was already an issue before the marriage) that is a deal breaker- like blindness, or a criminal record, or a history of pedophilia, etc. if someone becomes blind after the wedding, or commits a crime after the wedding etc annulment isn’t relevant. So it doesn’t work in all cases but is definitely something to consider in the case of deception.

tichellady

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 10:41 pm

Rappel wrote:

There is no halakhic issue for the children. Their status is not effected

Rappel

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 4:13 am

tichellady wrote:

There is no halakhic issue for the children. Their status is not effected

You're right, there shouldn't be a halachic problem. I meant that socially, a woman's children may be leered at as "born out of wedlock" retroactively.

It's not a reason to not use this tool in relevant situations, but it is a factor to consider in certain stripes of Jewish society.

keym

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:20 am

I know that for generations, when a mamzerus shaila comes up, the first thing the rabbanim do is investigate the wedding to see ifaybe it wasn't a halachic marriage. (Maybe one of the eidim wasn't shomer shabbos...) In cases of irreligious families, they can save people's status like this.

Then there's a famous psak from R Moshe that a man who knew he was gay but didn't say anything and got married anyways is a reason for annulment because it's a deal breaker and a major things.
But then rabbanim starting adding onto that psak causing a lot of discussion whether with other's reasons are valid.
Culminating when a Rav famously paskened that a man who withholds a get displays cruelty that had the wife known, she would have never married him, creating such a marriage annulled. A Godsend for hundreds of women, but creating huge machloksim and dispute.
At this point, most rabbanim avoid annulling a wedding, however retroactively they may try to. (Once the wedding happened to avoid mamzerus or chalalim.)

leah233

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:44 am

keym wrote:

I don't know the halacha issues involved but I don't understand this logic.

If "had the wife known, she never would have married him" is valid grounds for an annulment how can you ever have an agunah issue?

Which girl would marry someone knowing that she will end up an agunah?

SixOfWands

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:54 am

leah233 wrote:

That's precisely what its intended to do -- to end the agunah problem. And if it were universally accepted, it would do that, or at least go a long way toward doing that. But its not universally accepted, leading to concerns about mazmerut for children born of a subsequent marriage.

Last edited by SixOfWands on Fri, Nov 01 2019, 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ivory

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:20 pm

When I was trying to get my GET, someone came along and helped convine exdh to give it. This guy tried many things to free me. 1 way was to annul myexdh geirus (adopted and converted as a baby). BH the Rabbis said no to that. I was married over 25 years to him, and really did not like the idea of having lived with and had children with a non jew.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:35 pm

I asked the same question here a while back, when I was an agunah. I was basically told that I had a good case "on paper", but that it would be insanely complicated, and I was better off to keep pushing for a get.

B'H we didn't have children together, so that made things much easier.

With enough social pressure I finally got him to give me a get, but if I hadn't made things public he would have been perfectly happy to sit and let me suffer for the rest of my life.

nchr

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:46 pm

It is not a good alternative because not everyone will accept it and you shouldn't go looking for such problems. However, I'd imagine that Rabonim would try to be meikel in regard to any future children, but that does not mean you should do it.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:50 pm

Annulment is a real halachik concept and is 100% kosher, but the circumstances under which it's granted are very specific. I don't think I've ever heard of it beyond the first year of marriage.

My grandmother's aunt got one not long after WWI. She had gotten married right at the end of the war, and the young man had fought in the war and clearly had what nowadays would be diagnosed as severe ptsd. My grandmother said unfortunately she knew of of a few similar cases, all returning WWI soldiers with severe mental issues caused by the trauma of the war. Her aunt remarried to a Kohen. This was in pre-war Europe, very prominent beis din. So it's a real halachik thing. It's just very rare these days.

amother

Coral

Fri, Nov 01 2019, 2:10 am

I know many people that have an annulment clause in their wedding documents in case they would need an annulment in the future and the rabbis did so because they want to end the aguna issue.

No one thinks they will need a get when they get married, but someone might. It is 100 % valid according to halacha and the more mainstream it becomes, the easier it will be for women.

amother

Babypink

Fri, Nov 01 2019, 10:24 am

Coral, is what you are referring to called "get al tnai" a conditional divorce? I know that during WWII when a relative was in the US Army, he gave his wife a get al tnai in case he wouldn't come back she would be allowed to remarry. It sounds so painfully awful and so beautifully loving all at the same time...