Ethical Questions s/o from how much do you earn

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:48 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

I think it's a real ethical issue for therapists to milk their clients this way, and take advantage of their specialty area by charging well above normal rates because people will go to them anyway.

I wrote on the other thread that im in the hair/wig business. I actually used to work side by side with another person and we had a fall out because of a similar discussion. Her rates were going up and up and up. I used to watch her charge more wnvr she felt like it for the smallest things. If she was blow drying a girls hair for a date it was $40. Next customer, blow drying her hair for a wedding (same work, diff event) $65. I couldnt watch it..I felt she was so not yashor and took advantage of people. Worst was that people would complain to me as if I was able to do anything about it. I tried confronting her and it was awful. I ended up cutting ties with her and were all better off now.
So... are there certain businesses where people can do this? After all getting ones hair done is a luxury not a necessity while therapy many would feel otherwise... curious to hear your responses...

watergirl

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:56 am

There is this great show in Canada where they go undercover to different types of businesses to see who is ripping people off. One show was dedicated to the "wedding tax" and "funeral tax". Mention those words and the price sky rockets. They tried to book halls, flowers, caterers, limos, etc. all for an event that was more simple and then the identical things but for a wedding or funeral and the price went way up. Its a thing. Ethical? No way!

But a real specialist is a different story. They have gone to years of school to obtain their specialty and they should charge what they are worth according to industry standards.

Of course I wish people would take insurance and I understand why many dont. I can not afford people who dont take insurance so I dont go to them. But thats my choice. Some people do think they need the top person in the field, a specialist, whatever, and they really dont. Other people really do need these specialists. Its hard. But no, I do not feel these people are taking advantage.

The hair person you mentioned is charging a different price for the same service... a specialist is not offering a basic service. I hope that made sense. You cant compare the two.

amother

Purple

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:00 am

There is standard/set market rate, there is supply and demand etc...
It's completely not ethical to make up prices on the spot and charge different people different prices.
Having a set price (even though it may be more than you feel is fair) is a different story.

I feel that if people charge a certain price and are busy, then obviously there's a demand for their services and they're bringing value to the table. I've never heard of anyone complaining about a surgeon's out of pocket fees, so why do people feel that a psychologist with a doctorate's fees are absurd and are milking the client? They pretty much have the same schooling...

If people don't feel that someone is actually providing them service that is worth that amount of money, then why wouldn't they use a provider at a clinic, or someone that accepts insurance?

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:06 am

I am a dietitian.
I make peanut because I work for a hospital. People in the community have asked me to work privately.
I am happy to volunteer my time and I will refer out, but can't bring myself to charge.
I could make a lot more money if I did, but how do I tell a friend or neighbor who is diabetic that they need to pay me to help them.
(I would love a barter system where they could help my child with math and someone else would bring me fresh yummy challah).

amother

Pink

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:19 am

I do freelance writing and editing. It's not my primary job or source of parnassa, it's something I do on the side, but it can bring in a nice income when I really need it.

My rates are very flexible. It really depends on the job, how complicated it looks, how busy I am and whether it's for a cause I care about. In that case if it's a simple job I may even do it for free. For example I often get asked to look over a letter and suggest edits. If the letter basically looks fine I may charge $10 or not at all.

Anyone who doesn't want to use me or feels my rates are too high is free to find someone else. If they have a very short deadline (I need this 30 page brochure edited by tomorrow!!) it's going to cost more.

ora_43

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:39 am

I think it depends why rates vary.

Charging more for jobs that sound less interesting, or harder, is fine.

But if it's the same job...

If it's the same exact job, just a different person - I think that's usually unethical, but, what about charging less if you know someone is struggling? or charging less for people in certain circumstances (eg new immigrants, students, coworkers...)? Surely nobody would have a problem with the policy amother-above-me wrote about, of doing free or reduced price work for charitable groups?

It can be a bit of a fine line because really, the outcome might be the same either way, but to me there's a difference between, like, "I'm going to charge people from Rich Neighborhood more, because they can afford it" and "I'm going to charge people from Poor Neighborhood less, because they could use the help."

If it's the exact same job, but a different time - Like, what if I have the time and energy for a last-minute editing job for $30/hour on Monday evening, but on Tuesday evening I'm tired and can't be bothered for under $50/hour?

... I'd file that under "ethical, but not smart." It's not wrong, per se, but it's not going to look great if clients find out. Even someone who loves your work and your prices is going to be upset if they find out someone else paid less for the same service.

(eta - I'm talking about changing prices at random, from day to day. Having a higher price for last-minute work that clients are informed of ahead of time is a totally different story)

Last edited by ora_43 on Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Oak

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 10:39 am

People who are specialists (like me, I specialize in a certain niche area of speech therapy and have a private practice) have invested lots of money and time to develop expertise. It makes sense that we charge more. Our skill set is specialized. And we will typically get you much faster results. You can go to a mediocre therapist for years and make slow progress, or you can go to me and see amazing results in a fraction of the time! (I wouldn't brag like that IRL but it's the truth, lol!) Oftentimes specialists give a lot of their time for free too. I would imagine that the $450/hour addictions expert gives away a lot of free advice. IME people love to catch you on the phone or in the grocery store and ask "one quick question." If I don't cut it short, these "quick" conversations easily run 45 minutes. So don't think of us as greedy! It's more complicated than that.

ShishKabob

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:03 am

PinkFridge wrote:

It depends how arbitrary it is.
Makeup artists do pretty much the same job on all family members but will charge more the kallah. Ditto for hair. (Though I think that some will do a trial run.)

Charging different rates isn't necessary not ethical; it's the not being consistent that's a problem. (We're not talking about giving a chesed break.)

I'm thinking along the same lines. If you give a break for someone that can't afford it, maybe your prices for the ones that can afford it will be higher, but I hear, you have to be consistent.
Although, I must say, that in Monsey there's a store where everyone knows that there are no prices and the proprietor makes up the price depending on who knows what. People know this and still willingly come and shop there because they like the merchandise. Go figure.

allthingsblue

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:06 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Can you PM me? I have a question but don't want to sidetrack this thread

amother

Bisque

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:17 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

The difference is that addiction treatment is never short term. It is long term. Years. And the people stuck in addiction usually have lives that are overturned- wrecked. Often it's the wives who are struggling desperately to cover the family financially. So people go into massive debt to cover treatment, because of desperation. And the partners/families suffer even more when the fees are astronomical because all of the family's finances are going to help the addict. And this is for years. And the family stress and burden on the partner increases even more when therapy fees are astronomical. So a therapist who specializes in this, knows the typical family struggles in addiction, knows there are a very limited number of providers in the field altogether, knows the number of frum providers is minimal, takes advantage of that and uses the clients to enrich himself past the point of what is reasonable and standard in the field- that is where I think it crosses the line.

Chana Miriam S

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:18 am

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

You should be very careful helping people with diabetes. As I understand it a dietitian can lose their license for suggesting what really works with diabetics. Paid or not. It’s the reason I haven’t gone to dietician school, despite my desire to.

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:30 am

Loving the different views and responses. Heres a twist on the original question. Say you are a makeup artist, hair dresser etc.. and you have an amazing name out there (thosands of instagram followers, people booking you before taking a wedding date etc) is there zero ethical responsibility to stay "affordable"? This is strictly an ethical thing and nothing to do with Halacha (akaik). If you can charge $500 for a kallahs hair and still be booked every single day, is there a reason not to? Problem is when the top few people raise their prices to astronomical costs, everyone 1 or 2 tiers below that goes up in price even if its just a little making the beauty industy who chossnim and kallahs families completely unaffordable.
I hope my question is clear. What do you think?

singleagain

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:35 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why are you raising prices, is my question. Just bc the demand is growing. Or do you also need to hire someone to help you and are the make up products you are using staying the same or going up.

If you're expenses are going up and you raise your rates that's one thing.

If you are raising pricing bc it's the third Tuesday if the months that have a "y" and it's over 70 degrees ... That's another

amother

Tan

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:37 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

Curious. What do you charge?

amother

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:41 am

singleagain wrote:

The answer is simple, you are raising prices because you can. Because people are willing to pay it. Nope there is no more overhead for you. Same one secretary. You can even hire a 2nd or 3rd stylist or assistant and offer that to people when ur booked up. All that will only make you bottom dollar grow...

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 11:53 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This is a perfect question for a rav.

Oh, and there are other times rates for services may legitimately. E.g. for a rush job.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:07 pm

I had this question when I started out as a math tutor. I used to wonder why the rates were so high, and I couldn't bring myself to charge that amount.

Now, as a married woman with an intense job, children, and very little spare time, I understand why the market is as it is. It is not worth my while to tutor for less than a certain amount. It takes too much time and energy investment. I give my clients permission to text me questions between sessions, and I will spend time looking for extra resources for them. I also need to work out my schedule with my kids. It's very time-consuming and worth a lot. My rate is $100/hour, and I won't give a break for less than $80/hour. I think it's fair for the master's degree in math education and 4 years' experience as a public school teacher, especially given that most people who are charging that amount don't have the same credentials.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:18 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I hear what you're saying...

At the same time, I edit papers from time to time. I don't have a set rate and charge largely based on how much advance notice I got vs. how busy I am at the time, how much work it'll take me, etc. I'm actually pretty cheap right now and I believe I'm selling myself short. But yes, I might change prices seemingly at random- not based on my mood, but based on the total picture.

For example, two people might contact me with rush jobs at different times, and I still may give them a different rate. Why? One is a science paper where I need to do a significant amount of research in order to edit and proofread well, whereas the other one is a research paper about some topic that I already understand well, and it won't take any extra work on my part.

In other words, I charge by the project based on the amount of labor I invest. That is extremely variable.

amother

Pink

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:23 pm

To answer the question:

If the price for hair and makeup, say, became unaffordable to the average person, people would just stop using the service. You'd get your sister to do your hair and maybe look not as polished. Or it will open a niche for someone who's less experienced and willing to charge less.

For therapists, etc., who are providing lifesaving services. The question is whether they're really becoming rich off other people's backs or just living a normal frum lifestyle (which is VERY expensive).

My area is freelance writing. Nobody I know in the frum world is getting rich off writing. That's why most of us have other jobs and do writing on the side. If I could live well off writing alone I'd do it in a heartbeat. In general, though, ppl don't have to make a choice between my services and paying for food and rent. I'm always sensitive to charging money to ppl who have less resources than I do. But if they don't have the resources I won't take the job unless it's something I really want to do. Like, if you want to put out this book you'll have to fundraise to cover the costs. I don't have to assume the cost on myself.