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Ethical Questions s/o from how much do you earn
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 3:43 pm
singleagain wrote:
So.. is the solution to quiz the person Everytime there's a price change?


Idk. I've been in supermarkets where there were apologies/explanations for price increases due to whatever reason, and I think I've seen service providers do something similar.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 4:12 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
$400 a session is completely not within market rates in the NYC area, which generally has higher prices for therapy. And I'm talking about Manhattan, where rents are higher and therapists charge $$$.

I checked just now with google and found several therapists charging more.

I'm not saying it's the average price for therapy in general, but if someone is in a niche specialty, or is one of the top experts in their field in their area, it's not so unusual.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 4:16 pm
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
I hope you get your house painted!


It has been painted by different painters. The upside is that people like to say that they have worked on my house, so sometimes we get low bids for that reason.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 4:36 pm
This thread reminds me of the current serial in the Family First.
It's about a wedding gown boutique with outrageous prices.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 4:56 pm
So these are my thoughts about overcharging in the psychotherapy world. As a therapist who brings in a second income, I stick with a clinic that takes insurance. I’d love to be richer but I can’t imagine charging outrageous prices. There’s no reason new inexperienced therapists are charging $150/hr. And there’s really no reason for an experienced LCSW to charge $300/hr. Sorry. I’ve had colleagues tell me they charge as much as they do because they can. Yes they need the money. So is that ok? I don’t know.... I trust Hashem will send what I need one way or another.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 5:26 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I checked just now with google and found several therapists charging more.

I'm not saying it's the average price for therapy in general, but if someone is in a niche specialty, or is one of the top experts in their field in their area, it's not so unusual.


Just because there are potentially people that are charging those rates in some areas- for example, very wealthy Manhattanites- it doesn't make the rate appropriate or generally acceptable for those serving the frum community, where income levels are variable and financial stress is a huge problem for many families. Specializing in a specific area doesn't mean the price gouging is more appropriate. It just means that more desperate people will have to choose between buying their children shoes or paying for therapy, especially since their options are so limited and the therapist has the upper hand.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 5:31 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
So these are my thoughts about overcharging in the psychotherapy world. As a therapist who brings in a second income, I stick with a clinic that takes insurance. I’d love to be richer but I can’t imagine charging outrageous prices. There’s no reason new inexperienced therapists are charging $150/hr. And there’s really no reason for an experienced LCSW to charge $300/hr. Sorry. I’ve had colleagues tell me they charge as much as they do because they can. Yes they need the money. So is that ok? I don’t know.... I trust Hashem will send what I need one way or another.


It's really terrible, and I'm glad you're recognizing it. It really is a problem and one that really sickens me. I have lost a huge amount of respect for many frum therapists, and the price gouging is one reason. The substandard care that many provide is another huge issue, including serious lack of professionalism by the same people that are charging outrageous rates. I also find that many are just not bright, don't have much focus and drive, and are ineffectual. And they are charging $300 for forty five minutes of lack of focus and unprofessional behaviors
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 6:45 pm
Who's forcing people to pay $300 an hour for substandard and unprofessional care?

If they didn't feel it was helping they'd stop after the first session.
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amother
Blush


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 6:47 pm
If you don't pay people what they are worth, there will be no incentive to get better.
If there is no incentive to get better, the world will lose out on amazing therapists who will turn to other professions, or remain mediocre.
Yes, when the top tier raises their prices, it might provoke the middle tier to do so as well, but in an economy of supply and demand, people will not pay the raised fee to a mediocre therapist. They will switch to someone if better value.
While it's super difficult to be able to afford the top tier, there needs to be an aspiration for all therapists. And plenty of therapists in lower level clinics are excellent, so you can catch them on their way up.
As for experts... You are paying for years of their work. It's unfair to expect it for cheap. They aren't gouging you, they are rightfully charging what they earn through years of hard work.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 6:58 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
If you don't pay people what they are worth, there will be no incentive to get better.
If there is no incentive to get better, the world will lose out on amazing therapists who will turn to other professions, or remain mediocre.
Yes, when the top tier raises their prices, it might provoke the middle tier to do so as well, but in an economy of supply and demand, people will not pay the raised fee to a mediocre therapist. They will switch to someone if better value.
While it's super difficult to be able to afford the top tier, there needs to be an aspiration for all therapists. And plenty of therapists in lower level clinics are excellent, so you can catch them on their way up.
As for experts... You are paying for years of their work. It's unfair to expect it for cheap. They aren't gouging you, they are rightfully charging what they earn through years of hard work.

I dont agree. They are capitalizing on frum because it something that people NEED. A qualified, OT, PT, SLP, is just as trained and is rarely if ever charges those rates because people dont find it as much of a "need"
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amother
Blush


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 7:02 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I dont agree. They are capitalizing on frum because it something that people NEED. A qualified, OT, PT, SLP, is just as trained and is rarely if ever charges those rates because people dont find it as much of a "need"

But that is literally the law of supply and demand. And it is the way to get talented people into this profession. The market determines what people will pay. None of these rates sound crazy for the level of knowledge and work and experience.
The way to counteract this is to give people charity to see the best of the best, or for these experts to donate their time at clinics or for them to train others so the supply will increase, lowering cost. But it is unfair to cap their rate because speech therapists get less.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 7:31 pm
amother [ Blush ] wrote:
But that is literally the law of supply and demand. And it is the way to get talented people into this profession. The market determines what people will pay. None of these rates sound crazy for the level of knowledge and work and experience.
The way to counteract this is to give people charity to see the best of the best, or for these experts to donate their time at clinics or for them to train others so the supply will increase, lowering cost. But it is unfair to cap their rate because speech therapists get less.

I dont care what speech therapists make. I was saying that people are blaming it on their "schooling" and their continuing ed when in reality many other professions have the same thing. I know families who have gone into serious debt to pay for therapy. If that's what these helpful people want, then so be it.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 7:53 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Who's forcing people to pay $300 an hour for substandard and unprofessional care?

If they didn't feel it was helping they'd stop after the first session.


I don't want to get into this whole therapist thing. But I do have to say, that I don't think it's that simple. Imagine someone who needs therapy, got a solid referral, but isn't so happy after the first hour. She's probably pretty vulnerable, not necessarily confident or at the top of her game. I could totally see either thinking, oh, it's me, got to give it more time, or maybe getting that advice from a well-meaning mentor.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 8:59 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Who's forcing people to pay $300 an hour for substandard and unprofessional care?

If they didn't feel it was helping they'd stop after the first session.


Most people don't know that the care they are getting is substandard. They have nothing to compare it to until they either give up on therapy altogether or by chance land up at a good therapist. There have been many threads on this forum where people post about their therapy experiences, wondering if what they were experiencing was "normal". The therapists generally have good "reputations", and yet, they are texting and answering their phone during sessions, they talk more than they listen, they are misinformed, underinformed, or just incompetent. Most people who are vulnerable and hurting and who have no prior positive therapy experiences don't know how off it is, and they let it slide. Because of the therapists perceived reputation, or they came from a referral agency, or whatever. Many patients blame themselves for their therapists bad behavior. Unfortunately it can be very confusing and disorienting for the patients, and the frum therapists who do these kinds of things rest on their laurels and reputations and have no incentive to stop. They are raking it in and know that there are an endless supply of naive patients who can fill those slots.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:04 pm
amother [ Ginger ] wrote:
Op, maybe doing date is faster and simpler than for a wedding. Also there are less expectations. U was pissed that the haircut lady for my kids charges flat fee for haircuts and 1/4 price for bangs. My child has no hair it took her faster for haircut than bangs for person before. I felt a bit cheated.

Certain professions that require degree, skill years of not getting paid, loans, should charge what they are worth. But they should offer discounts for clients who come steady cause honesty its easier for them not do have to deal with new client appointment scedules and get to know them. (Thinking about therapists mostly)


Not always is that true...
I had a friend who got her hair done for her vort first the hair dresser told her one price (she thought she was the younger sister of the kallah) once the hair dresser was finished doing her work and she realized my friend was the kallah and not just the sister, at that point the hair dresser straight out said - she misunderstood and for kallahs she charges a different price which was higher.

Now what was the difference in time and work that warranted the higher price
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:06 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I dont care what speech therapists make. I was saying that people are blaming it on their "schooling" and their continuing ed when in reality many other professions have the same thing. I know families who have gone into serious debt to pay for therapy. If that's what these helpful people want, then so be it.


This.
There is a kind of victimhood therapists like to use about all of their "expenses". When those are expenses carried by almost every helping professional. And in general, I don't find the average LCSW to be all that well trained or knowledgeable or really keeping up on their continuing education all that much.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:07 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
Most people don't know that the care they are getting is substandard. They have nothing to compare it to until they either give up on therapy altogether or by chance land up at a good therapist. There have been many threads on this forum where people post about their therapy experiences, wondering if what they were experiencing was "normal". The therapists generally have good "reputations", and yet, they are texting and answering their phone during sessions, they talk more than they listen, they are misinformed, underinformed, or just incompetent. Most people who are vulnerable and hurting and who have no prior positive therapy experiences don't know how off it is, and they let it slide. Because of the therapists perceived reputation, or they came from a referral agency, or whatever. Many patients blame themselves for their therapists bad behavior. Unfortunately it can be very confusing and disorienting for the patients, and the frum therapists who do these kinds of things rest on their laurels and reputations and have no incentive to stop. They are raking it in and know that there are an endless supply of naive patients who can fill those slots.


I disagree. Therapists that charge these rates are obviously worth these rates . Otherwise they would not have any clients. Nobody starts off charging $250 a session- you charge $250 a session when you’re an established therapist in private practice that has worked long enough and made a reputation for yourself - that people will actually feel you have value over a therapist that is charging $150. Therapists that can charge $250 a session etc are usually those with extensive knowledge and training in different areas, and they are constantly training as well.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:09 pm
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
This.
There is a kind of victimhood therapists like to use about all of their "expenses". When those are expenses carried by almost every helping professional. And in general, I don't find the average LCSW to be all that well trained or knowledgeable or really keeping up on their continuing education all that much.


Well those that are not the ones that are able to charge high rates and keep a full practice then.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:55 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Well those that are not the ones that are able to charge high rates and keep a full practice then.


Unfortunately, you are misinformed. There are many therapists who spend more time on their "business" and cultivating their image to attract a high price vs. working on becoming the best possible therapist. And people charge these prices "because they can" and not necessarily because their services are worth the high price.

Again, they keep a full practice because they rely on the naivete of the frum community and the closed referral systems in place and the reluctance of people to speak up about bad therapists because of "Lashon Hora".
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Oct 31 2019, 9:57 pm
I don’t really agree that therapists who overcharge aren’t talented therapists. I just think they still shouldn’t charge so much.
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