Would you ask? | Imamother

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 1:05 pm

IDK if I would ask. But my mother would, FOR SURE, lol. I think it all just depends on the individuals involved. I didn't read any previous responses, but can guarantee that people will be posting with every possible kind of response. My mother and I are very close, and she has never had particularly good boundaries. We discuss practically everything. I am currently pregnant with my first, and she has already brought up whether or not I will be on b/c after the baby is born. This is OUR normal. I am 100% certain that my friend's mother would NEVER bring it up with her, because it would be considered inappropriate. To each their own. As long as mother and daughter are on the same page, it's fine. If there is a problem, then they need to find a way to work it out.

BUT, OP, it sounds like your struggle is about much more than this! I also find that its very difficult to know what is appropriate and what not. Especially as a giyoret ... much of what is "inappropriate" in the frum world is normal conversation to me, lol. I mostly handle it like this: I am pretty open with my own life. I try to stay within the boundaries of what I think the other person would consider "appropriate", and of course I am careful not to share anything TOO personal with anyone I don't know well. But I am pretty free and casual with conversation. I rarely ask probing questions, though. I let other people tell me what they are comfortable with. I find that people open up to me, and I assume that has to do with the fact that I am open, but not pushy.

If you are really concerned with how to have a relationship with your children, I would speak to them about it. Tell them that you love them, and you want to be there for them, but you don't want to be pushy. You want to find a balance that is good for them. Ask if there is anything you should/could do ... more, or less? See what they say:)

amother

Coral

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 1:15 pm

amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:

As a normal, caring mother it is your business. I'm sure you have a great relationship with her and she took your concern well. Not everyone does, and they wouldn't take such a comment well. But why did you feel the need to tell her? Did you not discuss it before marriage?
Really, you could've just told her to join imamother, and she'd know ALL about how important Wink

BC is.

Didn't discuss BC because my DD is very frum. But I didn't expect her to get pregnant immediately while nursing, so that's when I mentioned most Rabbonim say it's ok to take a break and she and her DH should ask their Rav if they need a break. I thought DD maybe believed bc is only allowed for life and death so I wanted her to know otherwise. Never mentioned it again. Just wanted to make sure DD knew bc is muttar.

I don't think she took my advice after #2 because she had #3 14 months after #2.
I think she took my advice after #3 bec. she had #4 24 months after #3.

But I don't know and I don't ask.

amother

Chartreuse

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 1:26 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Sorry if you felt that I put you on the witness stand. I was trying to understand your reasoning.
BTW, 24 months very possibly means no BC, but some natural breathing space Hashem gave her. Things tend to space out on their own without bc too.

And I won't know bec. I'm FOR SURE not asking her Wink

amother

Slategray

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 2:34 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I appreciate every reply

I so badly want to 'do my kids my right'

but I realize more and more that I seriously don't know how

how does one maintain a close and friendly relationship with child without overstepping boundaries

I don't have close friends for the same reason

how vulnerable should one be
what do you share what don't you share and with whom

I've been used alot so I'm very vigilant and can't differentiate

I know this may sound elementary to some of you
but this is my reality

Wow I struggle with every single thing here. I have no idea what to do I'm real life
I can't believe I'm not the only one

zaq

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 2:46 pm

To the person who hugged my post: kind of you, but no need, B”H! I am ka”h a grandmother several times over, and said “no matter how much I may want” in the hypothetical sense.

That changes nothing. I’m a firm believer in MYOB whether it’s your kids, your friends, your friends’ kids or your kids’ friends. If there’s something they want you to know, they’ll tell you, and if they don’t tell you they don’t want you to know so there’s no point asking.

Which doesn’t mean that you can’t daven your heart out for them—just don’t tell them you’re doing it.

Personally, I don’t daven for specific things like “let Plonit have a baby.” Maybe Plonit doesn’t want a baby. Maybe having a baby would mean the death of Plonit, ch”v, or kill her marriage. I daven for health, parnassah, shlom bayit and nachat, which I trust the KBH to interpret as He deems best.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 2:52 pm

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Interesting because I'm looking back now and feel like there were mistakes I made that perhaps I wouldn't have had there been a little bit more parental checking in.
I was seeing a therapist who missed some stuff.
I specifically didn't talk to my mother about it but I wonder now if was a mistake.

But objectively it seems appropriate for parents to keep out... just I wonder how many newly marrieds suffer in silence because they just don't know betterhow to handle a situation. So I guess if the parent is healthy would it be a terrible thing? On the other hand perhaps it's not worth the risk because unhealthy parental involvment could really reck a marriage.

I think this is a very important post.
Many of us come from cultures where adult parents and children were very close, and true there were sometimes issues of enmeshment and lack of boundaries. Today, the trend is to run in the opposite direction, and not speak to parents at all about anything (as can be seen from the horror some expressed that amother above let her dd know that bc is okay after she had several pregnancies close together).
There has to be a balance. Couples should be comfortable sharing with parents, who can offer invaluable insight and experience, and parents should feel comfortable offering occasional advice without kids getting all offended and screaming that its an invasion of privacy. But of course, both needs to be done with seichel. Children should be able to share in a way that presents them and their spouse as a united team, who are consulting with parents but will ultimately decide what is best on their own. Parents should be able to offer input without demanding that their suggestion be followed or insisting on detailed follow up.
So of course their must be respect, but the extreme of "never ask" or "never advise" is also foolish imo, and sometimes even cruel, like when a young couple (and so many of us marry young!) seem to be floundering and in real pain. Or "suffering in silence" as the quoted poster wrote above. Messed up parents are going to mess up anyways, and often it's the healthy ones - who would be able to offer invaluable support - who are so afraid to reach out bc of this pervasive attitude of the need to stay away at all cost.
In any case, I think the solution is to build open communication and a healthy relationship while the kids are in their teens and hopefully that will then carry over to healthy support and communication once their on their own too.

amother

Chartreuse

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 2:56 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

If they are getting married young, educate them young, BEFORE they get married and run into trouble.
You can also tell them BEFORE they get married that you're always there for them, should they choose (if you feel it needs to be said.)
You can also tell them whom to ask in case they won't feel comfortable asking you.
I do not want my MIL or mom knowing a single thing about my family planning. Both of them are the most wonderful parents and never ever ask intruding questions; this is not about them. Its about me and my special connection with DH and my ultra private nature.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Nov 03 2019, 3:08 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't think any posters addressed this directly. I'll try to offer some answers.
There can be ppl in your life to whom u say, "It's been a tough day/week," and you allow urself to be vulnerable and receive support. And then there can be one or two to whom you offer more specific details. Sometimes there's one friend that u share with regarding struggles with chinuch/children and another with whom you confide in regarding emotional "down" days. Different ppl can be there for u in different ways, and it doesn't have to be one person with whom u share everything and others with whom you share nothing.
Those who respond with compassion and concern are telling u that they care about u and can be trusted in the future. Those who offer judgment and make u feel worse afterwards are telling u that they are NOT the ppl u want to be vulnerable with. Any real friendship will require a degree of vulnerability and sharing, but you can always take away that privilege of sharing yourself with someone who doesn't respond in a way that shows they are deserving of that privilege. And in general, never share things that would be too embarrassing for you if they got out with someone who hasn't already proven themselves to be trustworthy and compassionate. You have to give relationships time to develop and for trust to build for a deep level of trust to exist.
As far as u not overstepping boundaries with other ppl, it's always ok to say: "You seem stressed/sad/overwhelmed. Is everything okay?" If someone will want to share, they will, and if not, u respect that. If someone DID decide to share with you, it's okay to ask some time later, "I've really been thinking about you. Are things better now with xyz? Is this still a source of stress in your life?" If they chose to share details, it's not overstepping boundaries to inquire later and shows that you care.

shmosmom

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 12:01 am

zaq wrote:

I hugged it because you said as much as you may want you wouldn't ask n I approve. N I approve of this post too.

amother

Lime

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 12:19 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Plonis

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 1:05 am

zaq wrote:

Plonis does want a baby, so you can daven for it! Smile

amother

Pewter

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 4:11 am

Normal parents do not ask. My parents have NEVER asked any of us.
1. Sister #1 got pregnant within 6 weeks, had 2 more kids spaced 2 yrs apart and then stopped.
2. Brother #1 had a baby 9 months after wedding and then spaced all their kids 3.5-4 years apart, they have 5 total now.
3. I got pregnant after 6 months (started trying right away but my mother probably thinks I was on BC). My DC is 2 and I am still not pregnant yet.

BH my parents do not say a word and if they ever would they would hear "MYOB" immediately. But BH they don't ask intrusive questions ever.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 1:19 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

A good rule of thumb is to only reveal the amount the other person reveals, letting them take the lead. Like don’t divulge health challenges until a long time into a friendship and only if the other person brings up issues, etc. And never discuss marital issues with anyone besides your spouse or a therapist.

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 1:33 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

My DD is very frum and I thought she may believe bc is ossur unless it's life or death.
I just told her she and her husband should ask their Rav if they think they need a break.

I believe the right time to inform one's daughter about BC and the need to ask sheilos, that it's allowed in certain situations, etc...is, at the latest, during her engagement (by her mother and Kallah teacher.)

After she is married, it is very much none of your business.

This includes girls who are "very frum".

OP, it's beyond intrusive for a parent or in-law to comment to their married child about the spacing of their family or lack of it.

amother

cornflower

Mon, Nov 04 2019, 1:36 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I wish KTs and mothers were more on top of this.

My KT told me that if I wasn't managing I should call the Rav. She made it very clear that I should be the one to ask the shaila and not DH, and that I should describe exactly what was going on. However, I still thought it was something negative that most people "don't do."

After I had my first child and I was falling apart, DH and I made an appointment at the Rav. Right when the words "birth control" came out of DH's mouth, the Rav said "Start with a year." He didn't blink. I was shocked, since he's an extremely yeshivish Rav. But that's when I learned that it's not this big taboo that I thought it was.