What does she have?

amother

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 5:00 am

pizza4 wrote:

Echoing above posters- try giving small dose of melatonin, half or quarter mg. Then you can see if her behavior improves with that.
I'm thinking she's just sleep deprived.
*Also, work on creating a calm bedtime routine. I actually wrote out what time we do each thing and hung it on the fridge.
5:00 supper
5:30 homework
6:00 clean up, prepare school things
6:30 baths/ pajamas
7:00 book in bed
Like this, even if things take a little longer, we can quickly get back on track, and if I'm getting distracted or on the phone, its easier to see what's next and go on.
* I sit with each kid for a few minutes and talk about their day, sometimes they have a lot to say and other times I need to pull it out with questions. I feel like it helps calm them if they're anxious.
*even if you don't do baths every night, maybe its worth to give the anxious kid a bath to relax. You can put in some lavender oil or Epsom salt.

(DD7 has a hard time falling asleep since forever, so I get it. It's super frustrating. )

I like your routine , but what time does your kids come from school?
She comes at 5 o’clock ,so supper at this time is too early
They don’t ask you time to play?

seeker

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:02 am

I'm confused. I think you said the child is 6 years old? Why is she only getting home from school at 5pm and having concerns about homework and studying (the first post mentioned difficulty with studies...)? This doesn't sound like typical 6 year old expectations. My kids at 6 had about 2 minutes worth of phonics reading practice for homework. Of course they need time to play.

I had the same concerns as you/your DH regarding long term melatonin. However when you've done a certain amount of trial and error and it's the only thing that works, you don't have much choice and you just pray. There is no evidence that it has any harmful effect, the only concern is that it hasn't been proven not to. I can't hold out for better, my DD would literally lie in bed miserable 2 hours after being put to bed because she's bone tired and can't fall asleep. And yes I tried a later bedtime in case she's not tired enough. I've also tried skipping melatonin - sometimes because we've had such a late night (e.g. yom tov) that I couldn't believe she'd be up even later, sometimes because she seemed to be getting sick and plopped into bed early saying she's so tired - and yet she still couldn't fall asleep. I'm not saying she NEVER falls asleep naturally, we just really can't count on it and after a certain point we just realized it's not worth finding out, better to just give it before she gets more tired and frustrated. Frustrating bedtime also sets up the wrong habits and associations and makes it harder to relax.

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:08 am

She has a group of neurological symptoms that often go together, aggression, emotional lability, insomnia, nighttime anxiety, hyperactivity, etc. How this grouping will be labeled will likely depend on who is looking at her/evaluating her, ie it will be somewhat arbitrary. But a label is just descriptive, it doesn't point to a cause, and what the label won't tell you, and you really want to know if you want to get to the bottom of this and heal this at the root, is what is going on inside her body to cause these kinds of behaviors. Does she have chronic infections like strep that are causing neuroinflammation? Does she have genetic polymorphisms that are affecting methylation and traveling upstream to affect her neurotransmitters? Is she missing some nutrients that are not allowing her to produce the correct balance of neurotransmitters for a calm and balanced brain? Are her adrenals taxed? Is her thyroid out of whack? Is she allergic or intolerant to foods she's eating that are contributing to general inflammation or possibly opiate like reactions in her brain? These are some of the things I'd be wanting to look at to best know how to help my child presenting with these symptoms.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:14 am

Totally agree with Seeker. Coming home from school at 5 after these long days of expectations to sit in your seat and then have to concentrate on work, and blame a 6 year old for not being able to handle it....is a little much.
Though I do think more is going on.

I'm very into health safety but at a certain point I had to cave in and give melatonin to my just turned 4 year old. She takes a fraction of the 1mcg pill but it works and she's now the only one that bedtime goes easily for. This is the kid that at 3 (not even 3.5) stayed up the entire seder with full energy, not feeling tired or kvetchy, or having had a nap at all. She would lie in bed awake for hours and she couldn't read to wind down or anything so she would sing at the top of her lungs and keep others awake too. I can't begin to tell you what a difference it made for her own benefit. I don't plan on this being a lifelong crutch; I only started maybe 2 months ago. I tried weaning her off, she's not ready. But I say this to show I understand your concerns but as mothers sometimes the less ideal option is the ideal in our circumstances.

Once sleep is happening, everything else will be able to be viewed as "what is going on with this little girl and how can we help her?" without needing to try things that 1)may not help because she isn't getting enough sleep or 2)isn't necessary because sleep was indeed the answer to that one specific symptom.

Being able to function in a smaller group vs a large classroom doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of ADHD, but document when she does and doesn't struggle, as it will help in the evaluation.

imasinger

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:14 am

To answer your question, OP (would a kid with ADHD do it), yes, someone with either ADHD or ASD might behave the way you described.

But that doesn't mean she has one of those diagnoses. Only careful testing can tell, not a group of strangers on the internet.

Really, what you need is a good evaluation.

Preferably neuropsych, but ask around for a specialist who is a great diagnostician.

Then, it's trial and error to find something that helps.

Hang in there!

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:18 am

seeker wrote:

Melatonin is made from serotonin, converted via methylation. Have you tried melatonin precursors to give her body the building blocks to make more melatonin? Those would be tryptophan, 5htp, l theanine, gaba. The herb chinese skullcap has a lot of natural melatonin.

In general I find this book explains the neurology well and gives very realistic doable treatment options. It's officially for adhd but can help anyone with similar type symptoms https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod.....psc=1

amother

Pink

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:22 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

But you are right I should give her more attention and positive reinforcement is just so hard for me bc I feel that the attention she needs is a lot more than I can give ( I have two younger thank her too )

This is so normal, we are all humans and you are having a hard time with her. Don't feel guilty about what has happened bug it is good that you recognise and want change. Maybe have someone you can speak to every day who can guide you with her behaviour and then also give you a chance to vent.
Hatzlacha raba

amother

Ecru

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 6:39 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

As someone with adhd... I completely understand your daughter. I couldn’t concentrate with so much noise and did so much better one on one. I was barely passing in school because of the distractions But when taken out one on one, I excelled.

As an adult, I am affected by this daily and I’m 40. I take adderall and there are times when I need quiet at work to concentrate and get things done with out any distractions.

#BestBubby

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 7:31 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you all for your answers.
I was reading about the adhd and she truly has almost all the sintomas. But the interesting thing is: when she has private classes she can sit still and she learns and she had a little bit of improvement (when I ask why in school you can’t she told me : there is too much noise in the classroom ). Would a adhd be able to do it?
About melatonin I agree with you all ! I have tried and it worked she would sleep in 15 minutes but my husband is afraid that it can have effects on the long term and it might be not healthy for her ....
about the complements like one of you ask: I try but is hard ,she sees me when I pick her from school and she already complaining and fighting

We KNOW that long-term effects of sleep deprivation is bad.

We KNOW that DD and parents are suffering.

Maybe have yr pediatrician explain to DH that it is better to take a sofek risk to
get rid of a a vadai risk!

pizza4

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 7:34 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I like your routine , but what time does your kids come from school?
She comes at 5 o’clock ,so supper at this time is too early
They don’t ask you time to play?

My kids get home at 415, they have time to play and relax, also each thing I wrote down doesn't always take half an hour so they have time to get distracted in between things. Laugh

I really don't like giving melatonin as a regular thing, I would give it for a couple weeks and slowly stop. I feel like it doesn't give a good quality sleep.

amother

Orange

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 9:16 am

My son was not aggressive in any way, but would be up in bed, awake, for hours. Turns out his body didn't know how to "shut down". It was recommended we get a weighted blanket, and that was a major game changer for us.

This was when he was 3 or 4. He's almost 15 now and we recently replaced his weighted blanket with a heavier one. He said it makes a world of a difference to help his body regulate and fall asleep.

We recently passed his old blanket down to my 9 year old son who was having a hard time falling asleep (still up 2-3 hours after being put to bed) and it really helped him too.

bnm

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 10:50 am

I feel like you are playing 'pin the diagnosis on the kid'.

A diagnosis is just a label describing a set of symptoms. You can start treating the symptoms without having the name.

First thing is to try to get the kid to sleep.
Then schedule testing with someone competent and qualified.

From my experience when I got my non sleeper on melatonin it didn't work magic but his teachers and therapists all saw a difference after 2 weeks of him sleeping. I'm not saying it solved all impulsiveness and behavior problems but it did make a huge difference. I also had more patience to deal with him and went to sleep earlier once he started going to sleep at a normal time.

One solution to the kid being hungry at pickup at 5 pm which would make sense if she last ate 2:30- bring along a snack. Cut up apples, part of your dinner, a sandwich, whatever works for you.

Last edited by bnm on Wed, Nov 06 2019, 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Brunette

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 10:50 am

pizza4 wrote:

My kids get home at 415, they have time to play and relax, also each thing I wrote down doesn't always take half an hour so they have time to get distracted in between things. Laugh

I really don't like giving melatonin as a regular thing, I would give it for a couple weeks and slowly stop. I feel like it doesn't give a good quality sleep.

I agree with not giving melatonin regularly. Just want to add that if it's affecting sleep quality it's very likely too high of a dose.

seeker

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 11:17 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I agree with not giving melatonin regularly. Just want to add that if it's affecting sleep quality it's very likely too high of a dose.

Yes, I tried it once with my child who didn't need it as much and it made her sleep poorer. The child who really needs it, it only helps. I give a very small dose - I bought a liquid form where a full dropper is 2mg and I give 2 drops if she's been having a harder time or off schedule, and 1 drop most nights.

seeker

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 11:24 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Thanks for the info and the book suggestion. To be frankly honest, I reached for the melatonin out of desperation and I stick with it because I'm not going to mess with something straightforward that works. Now that things are a little more settled, maybe I can try digging deeper because we still have challenges in other areas besides sleep.

amother

Cyan

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 11:54 am

I didn't read all of the responses, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something.

Sleep is a basic human need. If your kid threw up half of what she ate, you wouldn't say "she has trouble keeping food down." You'd seek medical help and find a way she would be properly nourished. If DD is having trouble sleeping on a regular basis, she won't be able to function properly--her body is essentially not nourished. So, if melatonin helps her body achieve its need to sleep when nothing else can, so be it.

I also wonder, based on what you describe, if she has a sensory issue. She can sit and learn one-on-one, but the classroom environment is distracting and overwhelming. I found sensory therapy extremely helpful for my son many years ago. He learned to filter stimuli and to use his body to help calm himself down. For example, stomping his feet really hard on the floor 10 times helped settle him down. Sometimes he'd drag all of the dining room chairs back and forth across the kitchen and that helped. I don't fully understand why, but it did work.

Best of luck!

amother

Wed, Nov 06 2019, 4:32 pm

Seeker you are right I also think it’s too much for a six years old . On her school they expect them by this age to be reading and writing in Hebrew and Spanish it’s crazy! (She just knows the letters and is still learning nekudos , writing she is not even close )
She doesn’t have homework everyday, they send it on Friday and she has to bring it to school on Wednesday. She shouldn’t be studying but bc it’s so hard for her to learn in school 2 times a week she has private classes