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Putting fish and meat out at the same time?
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Rutabaga




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 4:22 pm
I've seen fish at a kiddush that has also had meat dishes, but usually the fish is on a table with the salads or the grape juice and alcohol and not anywhere near the meat. I've also seen sushi at many a shmorg, but always at its own table and usually with a different style plate. I don't see the issue because people know to use separate dishes.
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amother




Mint


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 6:55 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I came from an outreach community and maybe that's why I never saw it done. Hardly anyone would know to keep it apart. Now I live in a frum community and I see all the time buffets - be it shabbos kiddush or just a party - with fish and meat being served at the same time. I guess the expectation is that if you're frum you know to get a new plate/ fork? Is this done where you live? Curious.
(P.S... my kids absent-mindedly make mistakes often and I wonder if even knowing adults do as well).


They’re usually not put near each other at buffets/kiddish, nor should they be. I’ve seen people sho should know better using the same plate and utensil for both.
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amother




Crimson


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 6:55 pm
cbsp wrote:
Source? I'm genuinely curious...


As already quoted the Magen Abraham. My husband’s yeshiva in Israel didn’t use separate forks and plates for fish. I feel like at a kiddish you could easily take an extra plate and fork if you held that way, or just take fish or meat. I don’t see what the issue is. What exactly do you expect? A sign at the kiddish reminding people to use separate plates?
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amother




Mint


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 6:56 pm
tichellady wrote:
Not everyone holds that it’s an issue and if you do think it’s an issue you can just use a different fork and plate. I don’t see what the problem is.


I think the only ones who don’t think it’s an issue are people who don’t know. Everyone I know and every caterer knows not to mix them or put them together.
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 7:31 pm
goodmorning wrote:
They quote without arguing.

(Not that the Magen Avraham is not a legit source on his own. Though I personally follow the opinions that we still do not mix the two, as do most people whom I know.)


Here's what the OU says. It's a long piece (because it talks about batel and kailim) so I'm giving the URL but only quoting the tl;dr:

https://oukosher.org/blog/cons.....meat/

Fish and Meat
OU Kosher Staff
September 11, 2009
The Gemara Pesachim (76b) teaches that one may not cook fish and meat together since this combination is considered a sakana. Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 116:2-3) adds that one may not even eat meat after fish or fish after meat unless one eats and drinks in between1. Rama adds that one should not cook open meat and fish in the same oven because of raicha (aroma), though bidieved we say that raicha lav milsa. Magen Avrohom (O.C. 173:1) questions whether this sakana still exists today, however the minhag is still to be machmir.

<snip>


It is clear from the Poskim that discuss this issue that they are still concerned about sakana even today. However, the opinion of the Magen Avrohom is used as a mitigating factor when there are other reasons to be lenient (See Shevus Yaakov III:70 and Yad Efrayim Y.D. 116).
Issur V’heter brought by Taz Y.D. 116:2
Sefer Davar Charif 15:3
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rgh




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 7:50 pm
Anyone know why it's a sakanah? It this something kabbalistic?
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tichellady




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 7:55 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
I think the only ones who don’t think it’s an issue are people who don’t know. Everyone I know and every caterer knows not to mix them or put them together.


Actually you are wrong.
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tichellady




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Nov 12 2019, 8:06 pm
I don’t even understand the question. You go to a buffet event and how do you expect them to be separate? You think the fish should have its own table?
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amother




Olive


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 1:50 am
I'm a BT and not a halachic expert, but one of our friends is a guy who went to some yeshiva in Israel where they hold that it's okay to mix surf and turf. He acknowledges that it's pretty rare position, but he's FFB and I'm sure his yeshiva is reputable. Sorry I can't provide more insight.

Anyway, our shul kiddush always has a separate fish table with herring and crackers (and sometimes a whitefish and fancy herrings if it's a more special kiddush). Sometimes the parve cholent is near the meat cholent; sometimes it ends up on the fish table.

Seems perfectly normal to me; most people at our shul are FFBs and seem to know to get separate forks/plates. Heck, most people seem to either be cholent people or herring people and don't like them both anyway.
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amother




Bisque


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 3:20 am
tichellady wrote:
I don’t even understand the question. You go to a buffet event and how do you expect them to be separate? You think the fish should have its own table?


I've seen seperate tables for fish at many events from every type of frum jew. Super yeshivish to Modern Orthodox to Chassidish.
I know someone who went to a super fancy kiddush and they had a table of vodka shots in between the sushi and carving stations
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 9:58 am
Never seen (iirc/afaik) separate fish. There just generally is a few things.

I've only heard on imamother to do something between the gefilte fish and the meat. My husband has been hosted by chassidim, by rabbis... It was gf, then meat.
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amother




Cerise


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:07 am
I think it's really more an issue nowadays with the popularity of fish sushi. Ppl don't pay attention by a smorgasbord and put both fish sushi and meat on same plate
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dankbar




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 11:11 am
I did see by buffet kiddush or by wedding shmorg one platter of gefilte fish next to a platter of coldcuts, or one smoked fish platter next to a cold cut platter
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amother




Amber


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 1:30 pm
I won't reveal which yeshiva it is, (hint: somewhere in the NYC area), but my husband learned that it's okay to eat them together, and so he does. He is a BT and has tremendous trust in his rebbe.

I'm FFB, and I still prefer to use a different plate and different utensils.
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amother




Coffee


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 1:32 pm
When I was growing up my mother cleared the table from anything that touched fish before she served meat. Our shul only allowed either fish or meat at the kiddush, IIRC.
The shul I attend now has herring and / or sushi on separate tables, but cholent and other meat items are served at the same time.
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Ruchel




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Nov 13 2019, 2:07 pm
There are Italian books with traditional recipes where it's NOT COOKED together (but the rest yes)
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