Why do people who know better say "eat by" / "stay by"?

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 12:28 pm

miami85 wrote:

As much as I value grammar, and proper speech, in the US we live in such a multi-cultural society any there are linguisms from other languages that have seeped into English, why can't we have our own also?

But why would you want to purposely use incorrect grammar to protect your linguisms? To me, teaching your kids to use "eat by" is the same kind of thing as a certain other culture allowing its kids to "axe" them a question. I get using hebrew/yiddish phrases over equivalent english ones (e.g., pesach instead of passover), but I don't get using incorrect grammar if you know better and are already using English.

amother

cornflower

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:14 pm

yiddish translation

its become "frumspeak"

though an english major I actually find it kinda cute in context

it doesn't grate on me like some malapropisms do that are just ungrammatical and not in usage anywhere except when people are making mistakes grammatically unbeknownst to them

ShishKabob

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:17 pm

It's funny to me that in this day and age, where society thumbs its nose at grammar and proper English, there are still some of us that it irks. It's not considered bad manners to text in shorthand either so to speak.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:21 pm

Reminds me of my midwestern accent.
We say things like: "Going over by x store, can I pick up anything?"
"I'll be over by her house"

So staying by and eating by sound like cousins.
Was born and raised in the midwest with very little frum jews by BT's so I cannot imagine where else I would have learned this type of speech from.

BetsyTacy

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:29 pm

At least this is only said in conversation, not in an advertising campaign. There are ads on television that still misuse less and fewer. We learned in 5th grade (although probably not a very good idea to teach a class of pre-adolescent girls) that we should always think of "less fat" and "fewer calories". Hearing it said wrong in a professional campaign makes me cringe. Ask/by I think of as people wanting to sound frummy.

I have never heard of a Jewish person "ax" for anything, but I admit I have not met that many Jews located outside of my geographcial area to claim expertise on that.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:47 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Because you are comfortable with certain expressions and accustomed to them, you keep using them. You may even have some affection for them.

Is it so hard to fathom that not everyone cares about "correct" and "incorrect"?

To me, proficiency with grammar is a useful skill and an important means to various ends, but that's it. It's not something I care about for its own sake. It's not a moral imperative. I do a lot of writing in my profession, and my grammar is excellent there. But I don't follow those same rules in my text messages or my casual speech.

amother

Lilac

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:51 pm

I am a giyoret, and usually a grammar stickler, but I have spent Sooooo much time by (lol) a Chabad House during and since conversion that I picked up this and other little frum linguistic quirks! LOL - it really confuses my non-frum familiar friends and family, but I do it without even realizing most of the time. I blame it on being an extremely auditory learner:)

thunderstorm

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 1:55 pm

watergirl wrote:

Also - “in the mood of”. It kills me.

To be honest, I didn’t know that the words you quoted are not grammatically correct. However, I did grow up with BT parents who were very educated and they spoke with proper grammar. For some reason it did not get passed down to us. It irked my parents that our grammar was so “frumspeak” sounding. They always made fun of it. I can say that our grammar education in school throughout the years was subpar. I never understood any of it and I think the teachers themselves didn’t really understand it and couldn’t give it over well . (They were the typical Bais Yaakov graduates).
I speak incorrectly all the time. It’s not intentional. I don’t know better. But why do people care so much about the way I speak? I’m not a grammar teacher so what’s the concern?

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:11 pm

avrahamama wrote:

I wouldn't question a person's education or ability to "know better". This is a dialect. The linguistic patterns of a community. It just is what it is.

I get this, but it doesn't fully answer my question. I'm wanting to know WHY educated people who "know better" wouldn't perceive this particular expression as bad thing and try to break it.

amother

Silver

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:14 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I get this, but it doesn't fully answer my question. I'm wanting to know WHY educated people who "know better" wouldn't perceive this particular expression as bad thing and try to break it.

Because they are using it as a way of identifying with "frum culture." Kind of like an ivy league educated politician who uses "y'all" and "ain't" when campaigning in a region where that's acceptable dialect. Saying "by" signals being in the group.

moonstone

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:59 pm

Ugh, this is one of my pet peeves- that "Yinglish" way of speaking that makes people sound dumb. Makes me cringe. I also hate "besides for" and "aside for". Both are incorrect! It should be "besides x" or "aside from x".

I've been noticing another lovely one on these boards lately. Instead of saying, "Does anyone know where I can buy a tablecloth?", people say, "Anyone knows where I can buy a tablecloth?" People, it makes you sound like you just got off the boat. But I guess it doesn't matter when everyone in your circles speaks the same way. 🙄

Iymnok

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:09 pm

I wouldn’t stay by my parents, nor would I stay at my parents. I’d stay with them. As in, "I will be spending shabbos with my parents". Another way to say it could be, "I will be going to my parents for shabbos.".
To stay by my parents could mean on the sidewalk in front, a neighbor, within view.

amother

Sienna

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:22 pm

I am a stickler for grammar but I prefer using by than using with or at.
it sounds nicer and comes across better.

"My cousin is sleeping by you but she'll eat the meals by me." quick and easy.
versus
"My cousin is sleeping with you (ACK!), my cousin is sleeping at your house (clunky)
she'll eat the meals with me (well yes but not just with me, with my whole family and at my house not me specifically) she'll eat the meals at my house (clunky again)

so to answer the question: I prefer it this way.

ETA: by also sort of has the connotation that the guest is under your responsibility, versus where they are located geographically. I don't know how to explain the subtle feeling.

"I'll be by my parents for succos" could mean I am sleeping at the next door neighbors (notice how "at" tells you the geographic location) but my parents are realistically the ones hosting us, feeding us and entertaining us.

amother

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:29 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

To be fair, "by" only sounds better because you're used to it (and presumably grew up with it?). As someone who didn't grow up with people speaking this way, it sounds worse.

"My cousin will be staying with you, but we'll have [or: host] her for the meals." Simple and clean. I can think of 5 other simple and clean ways to get this across without having to use the "by" thing.