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Why do people who know better say "eat by" / "stay by"?
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amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:41 pm
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:
It's not about class as much as it is about a flavor of tznius, as well as separation from the outside culture, though the communal inspeak isn't necessarily a conscious choice the way clothes are.


Interesting. I don't really know what you mean by " flavor of tznius." In my experience, a man who wears a suit and hat believes that his clothes project a certain dignity.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:42 pm
Laiya wrote:
My father's joke was about the boy who went outside to play. He called to his mother, Ma! Cut me up and shmear me over and throw me out the window a piece of bread and butter!


I have a hard time teaching the concept of proper word order to ELL students. Some of their Yoda-like constructions are pretty funny.

Because native English speakers absorb proper syntax rhythms without ever explicitly learning the rules, resources on the topic are hard to find. I recently found a book for international students that explains some of these rules. I hope it proves useful. So far I've discovered some concepts I've never learned, such as the fact that "going to" and "will" have different meanings. I thought they were interchangeable.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:47 pm
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:50 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
Interesting. I don't really know what you mean by " flavor of tznius." In my experience, a man who wears a suit and hat believes that his clothes project a certain dignity.


I really don't see why you decided to bring the two ideas together, but even working with your analogy, an entirely different point can be made.

One man's dignified is another man's weird. The chassidish man in a shtreimel looks more weird than dignified. These adjectives are both subjective.

The average frum woman doesn't care that her long skirt looks weird to the outside culture. She doesn't care that the nonJews who might eavesdrop on her conversation don't understand her Yinglish. She is not part of that larger culture and doesn't seek to be.

I like what someone posted earlier, that the key is to be able to code-switch as necessary, depending on audience and purpose.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:57 pm
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:
I really don't see why you decided to bring the two ideas together, but even working with your analogy, an entirely different point can be made.

One man's dignified is another man's weird. The chassidish man in a shtreimel looks more weird than dignified. These adjectives are both subjective.

The average frum woman doesn't care that her long skirt looks weird to the outside culture. She doesn't care that the nonJews who might eavesdrop on her conversation don't understand her Yinglish. She is not part of that larger culture and doesn't seek to be.

I like what someone posted earlier, that the key is to be able to code-switch as necessary, depending on audience and purpose.


It's interesting to me that there's a value to being proper, but only in some areas. You're right that some people who speak dialect don't care if they are understood by outsiders, but the point is that so many can't toggle into correct English because they don't even know that they are speaking in dialect. So we're back where we started. Frumspeak is a way of signalling.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:30 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
It's interesting to me that there's a value to being proper, but only in some areas. You're right that some people who speak dialect don't care if they are understood by outsiders, but the point is that so many can't toggle into correct English because they don't even know that they are speaking in dialect. So we're back where we started. Frumspeak is a way of signalling.


There's a value to being proper, in speech? And for you that means correct English usage?

No one uses correct usage in spoken language all the time, or even most of the time. This is true regardless of background, ethnicity, age, culture, etc.

Specific usage errors may bother you, but it's far more likely than not that you make other usage errors in your spoken language, regularly.

Perhaps people who use what you call frumspeak do value proper speech, but they define it differently. More along the lines of speaking with courtesy and respect, not using crass language, and not losing one's temper.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:33 pm
amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:
I have a hard time teaching the concept of proper word order to ELL students. Some of their Yoda-like constructions are pretty funny.

Because native English speakers absorb proper syntax rhythms without ever explicitly learning the rules, resources on the topic are hard to find. I recently found a book for international students that explains some of these rules. I hope it proves useful. So far I've discovered some concepts I've never learned, such as the fact that "going to" and "will" have different meanings. I thought they were interchangeable.


Supposedly English is one of the harder languages to learn as a secondary language, because grammar and usage rules (and spelling and phonics) are influenced by so many other sources and languages. Kudos to you for teaching it! What is the difference in meaning between "going to" and "will"?
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:43 pm
Has anyone else here had Miss Debbie Bernson for eighth grade English at Bais Yaakov of Boro Park? This was a pet peeve of hers. And the grammar she taught us!
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:10 pm
If you cringe at local sub-dialects of English, does that make you an intellectual or a bigot?
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amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 9:53 pm
Laiya wrote:
There's a value to being proper, in speech? And for you that means correct English usage?

No one uses correct usage in spoken language all the time, or even most of the time. This is true regardless of background, ethnicity, age, culture, etc.

Specific usage errors may bother you, but it's far more likely than not that you make other usage errors in your spoken language, regularly.

Perhaps people who use what you call frumspeak do value proper speech, but they define it differently. More along the lines of speaking with courtesy and respect, not using crass language, and not losing one's temper.


But not passive aggressive snark?

I don't mind Frumspeak. It certainly doesn't bother me on this site. I don't use it myself, but as you say, I'm sure I use other phrases that only make sense in my little world.

There's a difference between being an uptight grammar snob and just using English properly. Still, I don't think that frum Jews do their image any favors when they speak to someone outside the community in dialect.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:46 pm
amother [ Cerise ] wrote:
Reminds me of my midwestern accent.
We say things like: "Going over by x store, can I pick up anything?"
"I'll be over by her house"

So staying by and eating by sound like cousins.
Was born and raised in the midwest with very little frum jews by BT's so I cannot imagine where else I would have learned this type of speech from.



Yes different accents in the USA do use these phrases.
It's not ONLY a frum things.
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Sunny Days




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:49 pm
Laiya wrote:
There's a value to being proper, in speech? And for you that means correct English usage?

No one uses correct usage in spoken language all the time, or even most of the time. This is true regardless of background, ethnicity, age, culture, etc.

Specific usage errors may bother you, but it's far more likely than not that you make other usage errors in your spoken language, regularly.

Perhaps people who use what you call frumspeak do value proper speech, but they define it differently. More along the lines of speaking with courtesy and respect, not using crass language, and not losing one's temper.

Thumbs Up
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 10:59 pm
Quote:
couldn’t give it over well
This seems to be from Yiddish too.
Could not convey? Could not bequeath?
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:04 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm a BT and it fascinates me that so many frum people use phrases like "eat by" and "stay by." This includes many people who were born in America, were raised by American-born native English speaker parents, and have strong secular educations (attended prestigious universities, grad degrees), etc. A lot of these people aren't even super-yeshivish types who are constantly speaking "yeshivish-ese" (e.g., "mamesh this, mamesh that").

I know that these phrases come from a literal translation of the Yiddish. But it's obviously not correct English grammar, and I'm sure most of these highly educated people know that it's not correct grammar. I just find it really strange that frum folks have managed to keep with this usage. I get why frum folks would want to retain various Yiddishisms / Hebrewisms, I don't get why, if they're already speaking English, they would want to use incorrect English.

I'm just curious for some insight. Not the most important question in the world.



Ooh this is my pet peeve. I cringe every time someone says ‘by’ instead of ‘at’

Im like ok so your never actually anywhere, only near places or things.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:09 pm
Using "Im like" is not the most grammatical way to express yourself.
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mlc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 11:41 pm
penguin wrote:
Using "Im like" is not the most grammatical way to express yourself.


I was waiting for someone to respond to that Smile
I keep seeing these threads in which OPs want to understand something that seems different and then the thread gets derailed by nitpickers and then nitpickers nitpicking the nitpick posts and so on LOL

To answer OP, I actually don’t think most people saying ‘by’ instead of ‘at’ know the correct way. This is not an assumption; I had asked quite a number of people on different occasion and most were surprised that what the word usage was not representing their intention. Those who do know possibly find themselves speaking that way when they are (possibly even subconsciously ) catering to ‘audience’ who they are speaking to.

As far as ‘I’m like’ expression, that isn’t grammatically correct but it’s slightly different. That is a generational and/or cultural way of expressing the concept of ‘I feel’ or ‘I think to myself’. From what I see, the term ‘I’m like’ is more widespread than the Yeshivish word swap.

Slang versus word swap? Maybe neither grammatically correct. Tho to me the slang is more universally recognized and understood (Though perhaps still within certain age range) because the word swap is within a more contained group of Yeshivish and Chassidish.

To all the nitpickers, let’s call these pet peeves first world problems. May this be the most bothersome thing we experience.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 15 2019, 6:23 am
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
But not passive aggressive snark?

I don't mind Frumspeak. It certainly doesn't bother me on this site. I don't use it myself, but as you say, I'm sure I use other phrases that only make sense in my little world.

There's a difference between being an uptight grammar snob and just using English properly. Still, I don't think that frum Jews do their image any favors when they speak to someone outside the community in dialect.


If you saw passive aggressive snark in my post, you misread my post.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 15 2019, 6:57 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
To be fair, most normal people think that someone speaking Ebonics is uneducated and unsophisticated. On that basis, I wonder why anyone would want to be like these other ethnic groups and butcher English.


Every single group, subgroup, demographic, etc "butchers" language because language is constantly evolving. Ebonics has its own internal usage rules that govern it. Learning its structure and how it evolved may change your opinion of it.

People have also looked down on Yiddish, saying that Yiddish is a corruption of German; why can't they just speak proper German? In truth, both modern German and Yiddish evolved from Old German. They evolved separately, and Yiddish of course has other influences (Slavic, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.). Since language is constantly evolving, it's not really accurate to point out any particular group's dialect and call it wrong, uneducated, butchered, etc.
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Genius




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 15 2019, 7:28 am
My Bobby cringes from the way both English and Yiddish sound these days. I think it's a 70-yr-old thing to do.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 15 2019, 7:39 am
Laiya wrote:
My father's joke was about the boy who went outside to play. He called to his mother, Ma! Cut me up and shmear me over and throw me out the window a piece of bread and butter!


LOL LOL LOL
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