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Spinoff: A frum family needs two incomes?
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amother




Jade
 

Post  Fri, Nov 15 2019, 3:04 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
The article indicated that about 70 percent of KY's residents live below federal poverty levels with nearly half of the village's households reporting annual incomes less than $15,000.

The federal poverty level, BTW, is $43,430 for a family of 8.

You can try convincing me that's not poor, but you won't succeed.

You can try convincing me that a CPA with 10 years' experience makes less than that, but you'd be wrong.


I'd love to see a link of that article and I wanna see where they get their facts.
I think you should educate yourself a little bit more on the chassidish communities instead of believing all the negative articles on chassidishe Jews.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Nov 15 2019, 3:24 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
I'd love to see a link of that article and I wanna see where they get their facts.
I think you should educate yourself a little bit more on the chassidish communities instead of believing all the negative articles on chassidishe Jews.


There are dozens of articles on the subject. Here's one: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/0......html

Poverty isn't a value judgment, by they way. You can be a wonderful person and be poor.

But I'm certain that they get the information from government records -- composite (anonymized) data regarding reported income and family size, and composite (anonymized) data regarding government benefits.
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amother




Mistyrose
 

Post  Fri, Nov 15 2019, 3:57 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ah, but that IS a hard, cold fact of life. Society DOES expect women to work full time, and until that changes, which, frankly I don't see happening, the reality is that most women need to work, often full time, in order to make ends meet.



I'm sorry, but no, that is really not true. Does someone who's husband is making 150k a year have to work full time? What about 110k? There are plenty of two income families who barely make 110 to 150k. So that's obviously not true. And I know very few mothers of young children who work full time, UNLESS their husband has a very flexible schedule or is not working at all. Full time is defined as 40 hours a week, btw, and generally more in today's financial reality. So your cold, hard facts are not in reality true at all.

For those who are questioning me about my statistics, ok, I'll go through the list of towns that I know the statistics for - Baltimore, Detroit, Passaic, Lakewood... the vast majority of women in those towns do not work full time.
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amother




Blue
 

Post  Sat, Nov 16 2019, 11:29 am
SixOfWands wrote:
The article indicated that about 70 percent of KY's residents live below federal poverty levels with nearly half of the village's households reporting annual incomes less than $15,000.

The federal poverty level, BTW, is $43,430 for a family of 8.

You can try convincing me that's not poor, but you won't succeed.

You can try convincing me that a CPA with 10 years' experience makes less than that, but you'd be wrong.


Well they might report an income of 15 k.. doesn't mean that's what they actually make. Loads of people get paid off the books..
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amother




Wheat
 

Post  Sat, Nov 16 2019, 5:21 pm
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
Well they might report an income of 15 k.. doesn't mean that's what they actually make. Loads of people get paid off the books..


While I don’t want to spew LH you realize there’s also lots and lots of young couples there. And I wonder if the income for poverty level is changed depending on how many kids ppl have?
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amother




Linen
 

Post  Sat, Nov 16 2019, 9:18 pm
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
Well they might report an income of 15 k.. doesn't mean that's what they actually make. Loads of people get paid off the books..


So either the community is engaged in rampant fraud since they are receiving significant government benefits based on not reporting income or they are in fact living in poverty because the jobs available to those without training pay bulbkis.
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amother




Mistyrose
 

Post  Sat, Nov 16 2019, 9:20 pm
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
Well they might report an income of 15 k.. doesn't mean that's what they actually make. Loads of people get paid off the books..


Noones getting paid 100k off the books. Which is what a family of 10+ would need in order to live normally.
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amother




Lemon
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 1:25 pm
amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:
Due to advancements in technology and the concept of a flexible workplace, working full time no longer means being out of the house from 9-5. There are therefore many mothers, including myself, who work 36+ hours a week but still manage just fine without a nanny or even an after school babysitter. My boss has no problem with me leaving the office at 3 everyday so I can be home before my kids. I more than make up the hours at night after they go to bed, until whatever needs to be handled is done, and this type of arrangement is common outside the frum world. I know other mothers who mostly work from home and only go into the office 1 or 2 days a week. There are many options out there for both parents to work full time and make it work without a nanny.


I don’t want to derail this thread but I would love to hear more about this.
I am creating a spin-off.
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amother




Aquamarine
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 1:54 pm
I work full time at a professional job and make $95k.

I also work 2 side jobs from home which brings in another $20k.

Sounds like it should be a decent income but we have 7 kids in yeshiva so we are drowning. (Two older kids are on their own/working).

My husband isn't working right now but I don't even know how it would work out with all our kids drop off/pick up schedules. The jobs he's qualified for don't pay much and he couldn't work from home. For sure would not cover the babysitting help we would need.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 1:55 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ah, but that IS a hard, cold fact of life. Society DOES expect women to work full time, and until that changes, which, frankly I don't see happening, the reality is that most women need to work, often full time, in order to make ends meet.

And for those who say owning a business can be as profitable as earning a degree, I can't argue with that. But I can say that stability is an incredibly important part of supporting a family. And losing a business and having to open another and another simply does not equate with having a degree and losing a job and having to find another. Because opening a new business takes capital. Finding a new job in your field simply does not.

My husband took the degree road and went back to finish up college and then grad school the week after we got married. Why? Because he was working in the food industry when we met, and we both knew there simply is no stability there. He's an amazing culinary-school-educated chef, and over the years, people have asked him to quit his job as an education administrator and open a restaurant. With their backing. He turned them down every time.

It's all about stability.


Really.

Firstly, if I made choices around what society "expected" of me, I would be living very differently than I do now. I don't roll that way. Sorry. Societal expectations and beliefs shift all the time. I'll stick to doing what's right for me instead of shifting constantly to keep up with what "society" wants me to do.

Secondly, did you take any sort of proper poll? Can you share any evidence to back up your claim that society (an abstract word referring to whom exactly?) believes that mothers of young children should work full time? I beg to differ. I know, I know, my opinion doesnt matter though. Society is defined by you, not me. Apparently.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 3:32 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
That may be true where you live, but where I live a degree means ZERO. I live in a very chassidish community where many people own their businesses, and these business owners provide great opportunity for the majority of the population that are not business owners. We bh have a flourishing economy and for those that aren't well off, there are amazing organizations out there. Nobody walks out of the grocery with empty hands because they cannot afford it. And btw, very few women work..

You are so set in your mind about a degree and education, I'm just proving to you again, a degree isn't everything! Could be in your community it's the only way to 'make it'. BH by us that is not the case.


I can't tell you how many people have knocked on my door for tzedakah, and their story is always the same. They started a business, and now they're in debt from anywhere between 1 and 20 million dollars. It's mind blowing.

The chasidish community is gambling, and they're gambling because they start out with no education. They don't sit in a classroom or intern or learn about their field. They don't take the time to learn what makes up a business, how a business operates, how the accounts payable department should work, how the accounts receivable should work, what's a decent budget, what are unforseen costs, how to motivate your employees and retain them, etc etc.

What you're saying is that every bachur is told to start their own business because he has no other choice. And because of this model, the results are often not pretty. Maybe they don't collect at your doors, but they do at mine.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 3:45 pm
GreenEyes26 wrote:
I am very, very passionate about this topic, and could go on for pages and pages lol. This is something my husband and I frequently lament as we transitioned from the yeshivish to modern orthodox communities. (A long time ago now!)

There are layers to this issue, but bottom line is, it starts with a culture that encourages marrying young and having many children, and discourages secular education in some communities, even having men working at all.

The OP of the original thread is the perfect example. She said herself she wasn’t prepared with any sort of degree or education, and now she has a whole bunch of kids from HS down to young ones, her expenses keep growing, but she feels she can’t outsource childcare for her young children. It is doable, but very hard if it’s not something you grew up or are familiar with.

I’m more angry at the rabbis and leaders of these communities that encourage this lifestyle. You would think people would start realizing this just doesn’t work (and I think individuals are) but as a community, if anything, they’re doubling down.

Of course these people are stuck. They only realize this, however, once it’s too late. Things need to change. But when everything you’ve ever known is working against you, it takes a real strength of will.


I totally agree with you with most of what you've said here.

the only point I would argue is the necessity of a young mom working full time...

that would depend on the husbands income, would it not?

anyway, in my neighborhood, I know very few women who work a full time inflexible schedule, and those who do have in-home daycare aka nannies.

most women seem to work part time or 3/4 time (3/4 time would be, for ex, 8:50 to 3:15- a preschool morah's schedule)

it is extremely difficult to work out kids after-school schedules without
1. mom ending work by 3-ish,
2. a nanny in the home, or
3. family nearby to pitch in.

and there most certainly is inherent value in a mom being home with her children as much as financially feasible

with that said, I didn't read the original thread that this thread is spun off from

but I agree, our community does not prepare young couples for financial realities, and this reflects very badly on anyone who is old enough to understand the realities of the world, and knowingly misleads others, being fully aware that they are young, naive, entirely clueless, & easily influenced.

Perhaps a case of Lifnei Iver Lo Sitain Michshol....


Last edited by gold21 on Mon, Nov 25 2019, 3:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
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amother




Slategray
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 3:52 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
Noones getting paid 100k off the books. Which is what a family of 10+ would need in order to live normally.

Disagree. Cus I know personally someone who does and I'm sure I don't know the others, but they exsist.
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amother




Sapphire
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 4:13 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
How much will your typical actuary, cpa, lawyer make working crazy hours for a big firm the first few years?

What is the avg max they can earn?

Actuary - 150k
CPA - 150k
Physical therapist - 120k

That is after years of work. At that point that salary isn’t even enough for your avg frum family with tuitions and weddings.


This is just a total lie. We have many actuaries in the family. If you are good at what you do, motivated, and work for a company, you are promoted to higher and higher administrative roles within the company, not to mention speaking invitations at national conferences and many other opportunities. One relative who’s 30 years into his career is bringing in at least 3k. Another at 10 years in is approaching 2k. I know a sonographer who uses her experience to open an imaging center. So she’s an entrepreneur but only entered her current role because of her degree and field experience. Another sonographer friend is now the head of cardiac echo in her hospital. She is the bread winner of her beautiful family of 10. CPA can make partner within 10 years for crying out loud. That’s major $$$.
Please stop posting nonsense.
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gold21




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Nov 25 2019, 4:22 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
Not necessarily.
I’m seeing all the time that ppl who have degrees are many times limited by what they can earn. But those who do their own things the skies the limit.
I have friends whose dhs have crazy debt from school. Not every lawyer is going to make big bucks just because they have a degree. Or dr. My friends whose husbands have good degrees struggle.
I am a software engineer degree. Where I live I’m capped at 100k about.
My DH is self employed with barely a hs diploma and is doing way better then my friends whose dhs have degrees.
And most of dhs friends don’t have a high school education are doing amazing financially.

A. Everything is in the hands of Hashem
B. A degree isn’t everything anymore.

Think about those who you know who are tremendously wealthy. Other then a few drs or lawyers (who prob aren’t even on that level). All are self employed or don’t have degrees and worked for others and made it.


OK- but you're oversimplifying the issue

Where did your husband get the capital to start his own business?
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