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Spinoff: A frum family needs two incomes?
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amother
Rose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:49 pm
Completely agree with OP, and I’m not MO, actually heimish-chassidish. The only thing I would say is that a degree is not the be-all and end-all, while it definitely helps I don’t have a degree and Bh bring in a very nice salary. Also, it’s very difficult to have 2 full time working parents, at this point DH works full time plus and I work approx. 30 hours a week. The point is that even it’s not full time, yes, you need 2 incomes. Times have changed. Stop crying poverty and get a job!
(To all those who will be offended by my last sentence, this obviously doesn’t apply to those who are chronically ill, etc. but it’s not impossible to work with little kids.)
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amother
Olive


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:00 pm
I hear you, but sometimes the debt is out of our control.

Both my husband and I have a degree and were working with decent salaries. We were in debt from cost of living in NY. We were in debt from medical bills the insurance company denied.

We moved out of town where cost of living was cheaper. We both had a good job. Then my husband's company had a few bad quarters and he got laid off.

So even with all the hishtadlus in the world, bottom line, sometimes it's just not in our control.
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suzyq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:02 pm
And I'm so surprised to read that there are people who don't know families where both spouses work full-time and that being a SAHM is the norm. In my community, even for those women who don't work outside the home full-time, the norm is definitely that both spouses have some kind of money-making venture going on. Now, that could be a situation where the wife runs a business from home (like a playgroup or basement store), or the husband works non-9-5 hours in a family business, or one spouse works part-time (because the reality is it is VERY difficult to juggle the responsibilities of having kids when both parents work 9-5 or more outside the house). But the vast majority of families I know have two earners because it's just almost impossible to make ends meet otherwise in the frum world in particular.
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:05 pm
suzyq wrote:
And I'm so surprised to read that there are people who don't know families where both spouses work full-time and that being a SAHM is the norm. In my community, even for those women who don't work outside the home full-time, the norm is definitely that both spouses have some kind of money-making venture going on. Now, that could be a situation where the wife runs a business from home (like a playgroup or basement store), or the husband works non-9-5 hours in a family business, or one spouse works part-time (because the reality is it is VERY difficult to juggle the responsibilities of having kids when both parents work 9-5 or more outside the house). But the vast majority of families I know have two earners because it's just almost impossible to make ends meet otherwise in the frum world in particular.


I know very few SAHMs, but everyone I know works part time (under 30 hours a week). There's a difference between 28 hours and 40 hours. At least I think so.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:08 pm
Why does a successful life have to fall into one of only two options- SAHM or working parents with no nanny? Why not option three- working parents who pay for help. Many families I know, including my own, fall into this category. Paying for childcare is an investment in my career and, as such, my family’s security. Nothing wrong with that.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:37 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
I know very few SAHMs, but everyone I know works part time (under 30 hours a week). There's a difference between 28 hours and 40 hours. At least I think so.


Yes. I worked in one the biggest companies in Lakewood with over a hundred women. There were particularly driven women there. However less than 5 worked past 430?m once they had kids . Many work til 330 or 4. It makes a huge difference
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 3:39 pm
Choices,choices...
You can have a career and have a nanny take care of your kids.
You can also have a small job that doesn't make much but enough that you can be home to get your kids.
You can start your life in kollel but most likely wil not earn a college degree.
You can open an amazon business and make loads of money without a degree but most likely you won't make loads without a degree.
You can also marry someone who earns a lot and be a SAHM.
It's ok.
It's usually a lifestyle choice.
sometimes it's just the circumstance that you were put in.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:15 pm
amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:
Choices,choices...
You can have a career and have a nanny take care of your kids.
You can also have a small job that doesn't make much but enough that you can be home to get your kids.
You can start your life in kollel but most likely wil not earn a college degree.
You can open an amazon business and make loads of money without a degree but most likely you won't make loads without a degree.
You can also marry someone who earns a lot and be a SAHM.
It's ok.
It's usually a lifestyle choice.
sometimes it's just the circumstance that you were put in.


Except for when these choices are not presented to you in a timely fashion. You can't turn back the clock to go do the choosing, and you have to either resort to grudging acceptance of a lifestyle you wouldn't have chosen or living a highly stressed life to jump over all the obstacles.

Present these options to all kids BEFORE they get married - give them the honest truth about realities of life, and only then its a proper choice.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:20 pm
tigerwife wrote:
My point was that times have changed. Most of our parents did not have degrees, did reasonably well and our mothers were able to stay home. Why would they raise us to get degrees by default because we would never earn enough on one income? That’s not what happened by them.

I agree that questions like “how can people afford xyz” are pointless. It didn’t take much for me to figure out that I can’t afford to be a SAHM right now, or that some people just have better mazal than others and are very financially succeful.


I live in a well to do area in Lakewood and the people with degrees aren’t doing as well as the people without them. The potential is so much higher when you’re a self employed entrepreneur or in nursing homes or real estate. I know it’s not a given but my parents are very well to do and my father has his own business and my mother never worked. I’m a SAHM and my husband b”h is making a very comfortable salary self employed. No one on my block has a degree and they are all well to do and self made.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:27 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I live in a well to do area in Lakewood and the people with degrees aren’t doing as well as the people without them. The potential is so much higher when you’re a self employed entrepreneur or in nursing homes or real estate. I know it’s not a given but my parents are very well to do and my father has his own business and my mother never worked. I’m a SAHM and my husband b”h is making a very comfortable salary self employed. No one on my block has a degree and they are all well to do and self made.


There is no one way that works for all of society. Not everyone can be a self employed entrepreneur. They're wired in a way that they just can't do it. But they can do amazingly well if they're properly trained for a professional career. We need to offer our children all kinds of different options so ALL have a chance to thrive.

We need to properly prepare our children for life. Older teens should talk to advisors and guidance counselors (and parents of course) to figure out what lifestyle would work best for them - BEFORE they get married.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:30 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
There is no one way that works for all of society. Not everyone can be a self employed entrepreneur. They're wired in a way that they just can't do it. But they can do amazingly well if they're properly trained for a professional career. We need to offer our children all kinds of different options so ALL have a chance to thrive.

We need to properly prepare our children for life. Older teens should talk to advisors and guidance counselors (and parents of course) to figure out what lifestyle would work best for them - BEFORE they get married.


I’m just responding to the self righteous OP who is claiming that people are crippled without a degree.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:38 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I’m just responding to the self righteous OP who is claiming that people are crippled without a degree.


Sorry, but I believe you're being self righteous now. Because people who cannot be self-employed entrepreneurs are crippled without a degree.
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:41 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I’m just responding to the self righteous OP who is claiming that people are crippled without a degree.


I agree with you. I know many women who have degrees and are doing absolutely nothing with, and I know many women without degrees who are doing well (shaitelmachers, anyone?) Especially by the men in our town, there are many men who are doing very, very well without degrees.

And degrees can be expensive, I don't think it's always cost effective.
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1091




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:45 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
Most families I know have two working parents but I also don’t know a single family where both work FULL TIME.
Working 9-3 is not full time , working full time is 36+ hours a week (definitions vary but 36 minimum )


My DH and I both work full time plus commuting times. We are one of many in our community.
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:46 pm
1091 wrote:
My DH and I both work full time plus commuting times. We are one of many in our community.


It sounds like your community is set up for it. I am the OP from the other thread, my community is NOT set up for it and nobody here does it.

Maybe that's a good thing for the majority, I don't know, but some of us do need two incomes.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:51 pm
Um isn't this a frum site? Don't we believe parnassah is in Gds hands???

Obviously we need to do our part, get a job, do whatever it takes to try our best in making a living-but at the end of the day, IT IS NOT IN OUR HANDS!

There are smart, talented people I know with degrees, who are in debt, and there are dumb people I know( sorry to be mean, but they just aren't smart) who struck it rich!
It is not in our control!


Everyone should do the best they can to make a living in the way that makes the most sense for them, and then let go and believe that the amount of $ they will make has been determined on Rosh Hashanah!

Or do we only preach and not really believe?
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:55 pm
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
Um isn't this a frum site? Don't we believe parnassah is in Gds hands???

Obviously we need to do our part, get a job, do whatever it takes to try our best in making a living-but at the end of the day, IT IS NOT IN OUR HANDS!

There are smart, talented people I know with degrees, who are in debt, and there are dumb people I know( sorry to be mean, but they just aren't smart) who struck it rich!
It is not in our control!


Everyone should do the best they can to make a living in the way that makes the most sense for them, and then let go and believe that the amount of $ they will make has been determined on Rosh Hashanah!

Or do we only preach and not really believe?


Do you believe in hishtadlus?
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:55 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
I agree with you. I know many women who have degrees and are doing absolutely nothing with, and I know many women without degrees who are doing well (shaitelmachers, anyone?) Especially by the men in our town, there are many men who are doing very, very well without degrees.

And degrees can be expensive, I don't think it's always cost effective.


I have to disagree. I don't know anyone that regretted getting a degree. Even people who complain about their enormous student loan debt will never tell you that it was not worth it.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:57 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
Do you believe in hishtadlus?


I definitely do. If you read my post, I mentioned very clearly that everyone should try their best to make a living in the way that makes the most sense for them.
But after that, let go. Your financial success, or otherwise, is not in your hands.
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:59 pm
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I have to disagree. I don't know anyone that regretted getting a degree. Even people who complain about their enormous student loan debt will never tell you that it was not worth it.


We obviously know different people then. A lot of women have degrees in things like history, english literature, or psychology, which are nice but not helpful for parnasah.

I know a few women with special ed or accounting degrees who do not use their degrees at all.
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