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Spinoff: A frum family needs two incomes?
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amother
Mistyrose


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 4:59 pm
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
I definitely do. If you read my post, I mentioned very clearly that everyone should try their best to make a living in the way that makes the most sense for them.
But after that, let go. Your financial success, or otherwise, is not in your hands.


Maybe we disagree as to the definition of hishtadlus.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:03 pm
College is a big money making business. DH is self employed in a field not at all related to his degree (he calls it a BA in BS). There are many ways to earn a parnassa without college. Do what works for you or your kid.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:13 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
Maybe we disagree as to the definition of hishtadlus.


Maybe. How do you define it?

I define it as each person trying their best, and then leaving the results to Gd.

An interesting idea I once heard is that if someone does something that is against halacha in the name of parnassah, (being dishonest, shaking hands with a woman IF your Rabbi holds it's not allowed, or even working so much they don't have time to learn any Torah) then they are going out of the bounds of hishtadlus. But that's off-tangent.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:29 pm
I’m a stay at home mom. My husband is professional. We live off what my husband makes and have family help.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:43 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I live in a well to do area in Lakewood and the people with degrees aren’t doing as well as the people without them. The potential is so much higher when you’re a self employed entrepreneur or in nursing homes or real estate. I know it’s not a given but my parents are very well to do and my father has his own business and my mother never worked. I’m a SAHM and my husband b”h is making a very comfortable salary self employed. No one on my block has a degree and they are all well to do and self made.


Unfortunately I find that with self employed entrepreneurs, there can be a very large temptation to do something illegal, for example not to report all your income, paying people under the table, hiring illegals, etc..And please do not get me started on nursing homes. So much improper management goes on in some of them.

I very much agree with the OP that people should wait till they have some money in the bank before getting married. And for those that say - she went to college and had so much student loan debt, please. There are many choices in higher education (read: public colleges) that don't have you saddled with debt for a lifetime.
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GreenEyes26




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 5:46 pm
I am very, very passionate about this topic, and could go on for pages and pages lol. This is something my husband and I frequently lament as we transitioned from the yeshivish to modern orthodox communities. (A long time ago now!)

There are layers to this issue, but bottom line is, it starts with a culture that encourages marrying young and having many children, and discourages secular education in some communities, even having men working at all.

The OP of the original thread is the perfect example. She said herself she wasn’t prepared with any sort of degree or education, and now she has a whole bunch of kids from HS down to young ones, her expenses keep growing, but she feels she can’t outsource childcare for her young children. It is doable, but very hard if it’s not something you grew up or are familiar with.

I’m more angry at the rabbis and leaders of these communities that encourage this lifestyle. You would think people would start realizing this just doesn’t work (and I think individuals are) but as a community, if anything, they’re doubling down.

Of course these people are stuck. They only realize this, however, once it’s too late. Things need to change. But when everything you’ve ever known is working against you, it takes a real strength of will.
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amother
Green


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:13 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
Do you believe in hishtadlus?


Yes she does that's why she said do our part and get a job.
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1091




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:33 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
It sounds like your community is set up for it. I am the OP from the other thread, my community is NOT set up for it and nobody here does it.

Maybe that's a good thing for the majority, I don't know, but some of us do need two incomes.


I’m not sure I understand what that means. How is a community “set up” for two working parents?
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:40 pm
1091 wrote:
I’m not sure I understand what that means. How is a community “set up” for two working parents?


daycare options that go to 6pm.

afterschool options that go to 6pm.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:46 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
Most families I know have two working parents but I also don’t know a single family where both work FULL TIME.
Working 9-3 is not full time , working full time is 36+ hours a week (definitions vary but 36 minimum )


I don’t understand your point. Op didn’t say that both parents need to work FULL time. Rather that both should be prepared to make money to support their families. Some families can make it one income, yes, but it behooves us to set up our children with marketable skills and education. That is the MO hashkafah and I think that everyone knows it’s true but some kind of try to pretend it’s not true.
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cozyblanket




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:50 pm
1091 wrote:
I’m not sure I understand what that means. How is a community “set up” for two working parents?


Simple.
Some places have babysitting/preschool options only til 1 or 2pm and it's so hard to make arrangements to have your children cared for later than that.

Some places have vacation camp options during school vacations and some don't; you are on your own with finding a babysitter, etc.

In some places, the school knows to schedule events on Sundays to accommodate working parents and some places repeatedly schedule things on weekdays at 10:30am and you want to tear your hair out.

Some schools start at 8:15 and some start at 9:00.

Yes, there are places where the setup is more supportive of two working parents than other places.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:05 pm
Why are you all so one track minded with degrees and education??
So many people I know are loaded with money from Amazon, construction, real estate, many types of businesses. And no they did not get a professional education.
They learnt to be great entrepreneurs through resilience and strong upbringings.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:11 pm
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
Why are you all so one track minded with degrees and education??
So many people I know are loaded with money from Amazon, construction, real estate, many types of businesses. And no they did not get a professional education.
They learnt to be great entrepreneurs through resilience and strong upbringings.
lol ur so positive, or through narcissism -many rich people get rich because they are narcisstic and play on people to move up higher and higher
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amother
Silver


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:34 pm
Nobody in my extended family has a degree. All do really nicely. (Meaning few hundred thousand dollar to millions)
Personally I work part time (according to some of you) from 9-4 and do take a lot but I am very very very flexible and I need that at this point in my life as I have little kids. Dh didn't either go to college and bh makes enough for us.
in my line of work, I see people salaries. I personally don't feel that just because someone went to college, they do any better than others.
I also know other people who went to college, and do nothing with their lives today. It's all relative, it depends on the person completely.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:50 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
lol ur so positive, or through narcissism -many rich people get rich because they are narcisstic and play on people to move up higher and higher


Wow- we can’t win with you people. When I say that many people I know have done well through owning their own business I get told that they probably lie and cheat or that they’re narcissists?

My sister in law is an SLP and brother in law is in IT and they are scraping by on $120k both of them working almost full time. My husband is doing amazon and easily makes $350k + a year. And there are MANY MANY like him in Lakewood. It’s not your way or the highway. And before you say it- we pay an exhorbitant number in taxes and do not lie and cheat and neither is he a narcissist.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 7:58 pm
Chayalle wrote:
What makes you say that? (both of my parents had college degrees)

It used to be pretty common for Yeshiva guys to go to college. My mother sat in the same class as a prominent yeshivish Rav of today (who would likely never publicize the fact). He sat in the back with a Sefer, and copied her notes before the exams.


I was talking about the circles I grew up in, not frum Jews in general.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:02 pm
amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:
Unfortunately I find that with self employed entrepreneurs, there can be a very large temptation to do something illegal, for example not to report all your income, paying people under the table, hiring illegals, etc..And please do not get me started on nursing homes. So much improper management goes on in some of them


amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
lol ur so positive, or through narcissism -many rich people get rich because they are narcisstic and play on people to move up higher and higher


Lots of baseless speculation here. Even if it's true that some rich people have dealt dishonestly, or hurt others...How is that relevant or responsive to what was posted?
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:02 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
Wow- we can’t win with you people. When I say that many people I know have done well through owning their own business I get told that they probably lie and cheat or that they’re narcissists?

My sister in law is an SLP and brother in law is in IT and they are scraping by on $120k both of them working almost full time. My husband is doing amazon and easily makes $350k + a year. And there are MANY MANY like him in Lakewood. It’s not your way or the highway. And before you say it- we pay an exhorbitant number in taxes and do not lie and cheat and neither is he a narcissist.


Because for every one person that makes it, there's probably a dozen or more who didn't. Constantly bringing up examples of people who have made it as proof there's no issue in our society is putting on blinders. And it gets very very very frustrating to the those struggling.

I repeat - just because some can make it in the system, doesn't mean that we need to deny the others opportunities for them to make it too.

So it's time to acknowledge that our system unnecessarily creates undue hardships for many. And lets brainstorm ways to help the future generation avoid those pitfalls.
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amother
Chocolate


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:06 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
Wow- we can’t win with you people. When I say that many people I know have done well through owning their own business I get told that they probably lie and cheat or that they’re narcissists?

My sister in law is an SLP and brother in law is in IT and they are scraping by on $120k both of them working almost full time. My husband is doing amazon and easily makes $350k + a year. And there are MANY MANY like him in Lakewood. It’s not your way or the highway. And before you say it- we pay an exhorbitant number in taxes and do not lie and cheat and neither is he a narcissist.


May I ask, for how long has your dh been earning at this level? and is that 350k before or after business expenses?
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:28 pm
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
May I ask, for how long has your dh been earning at this level? and is that 350k before or after business expenses?


and I would like to know what you mean by "does Amazon"? And he and all those that you know that "do Amazon" did they get help with start up costs? Did they have some sort of "in"? As another poster hinted at: if it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.
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