Just did something so painful

amother

Smokey

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 1:12 am

Dear OP
I think that chocolate mom gave you very good advice.
It's super hard when you go through such times with your child.
I told my child, that It's their decision if they stay religious or not, but certain things have nothing to do with religion.
I told them that having s*x is part of a serious long lasting relationship. Obviously I would like you to wait till you get married, but it's not my choice. If you don't wait then make sure to be in a very good relationship, build on mutual respect. Breaking up when you were together is much harder.
Talk about contraceptives. Because of the medical risks involved they have to use condoms, even if halachicaly not right in addition to the pill.
I know it's really hard, I'm in a similar situation, but try to talk to her respectfully, no preaching.
Try to see the good in her. Try to remember the sweet things about her. (boy, I know how hard it is, bec sometimes you get to a point of not seeing anything good in your child)
Daven, daven, daven, daven and B"H she will turn out to be a good and healthy adult.
Hugs

amother

Forestgreen

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 1:13 am

DrMom wrote:

So to me (and granted this is my own perspective because I know many righteous observant women who wear pants and/or go to pizza shops), the most alarming aspect of this is the drugs.

I realize that your daughter wearing pants is painful for you because it is totally unaccepted in you community, but I think you need to practice risk mitigation.

If there are really drug addicts hanging out at this place at that hour, there is no way I would drive my daughter there - despite what any "expert" tells me.

How about you ask your daughter to invite her friend (pants and all) over to your house and order a pizza for them? Or can you drive them to and from the pizza shop before the undesirable element begins to hang out there?

Perhaps if you try to think of some solutions, you will not feel so powerless and in despair.

You seem like an accomplished and educated person, but as an outsider to the nuances of this particular community in discussion, I think you're missing the point. This isn't about pizza or pants ... It's about being rebellious/making a statement about being different, and part of that is the social scene that she's part of and wanted to go mingle in tonight. Unfortunately, there are some narcotic uses as part of that social scene. Telling OP to tell DD to have pizza at home or go when it's empty is like telling someone not to go to a party, just drink a bottle of booze in your basement... It sort of misses the boat. You gotta know the root causes and objectives, not just any particular symptom/manifestation and confuse that with thinking it's someone's goal. OP knows her daughter quite well, and isn't naive in the slightest.

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

I think what op needed now was just a hug

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 1:37 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I’m sorry you are going through this. It’s So hard, Hugs!! Definitely have an open conversation about drugs , std and sx Ed .
Is she a HS aged girl? There are girls’ high school in Lakewood and Flatbush that specialize For teens at risk this way she can feel accomplished while having a schedule and graduate.
Wishing you lots of strength and siyata dishmaya with her!

OPs DD is not “at risk” just because she’s wearing pants and hanging out with friends at a local pizza shop. What makes you think that she’s at risk of not graduating?

DrMom

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 1:45 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Hi Forestgreen,
I understand that I am not from the same circles as OP, and I also understand that this is about rebellion.

What I am suggesting is supporting her DD as much as possible, but not driving her to someplace where there is drug usage (assuming this is even true and not an exaggeration). Let her DD know that it is okay to take another path in life, and that she can do so without severing her ties with her family.

What I do not think is a good idea is just helplessly surrendering her DD to whatever dark underbelly of society is readily available to someone who wants to rebel. To bundle together pants and drug use as if they are on the same order of magnitude and say, "okay, I guess instead of the skirts and drug-free path, she is going on the pants and druggie path," as if life is split into those binary choices.

Maybe the daughter simply wants to explore another hashkafa, or she has some fundamental questions that need solid answers. OP needs to help her navigate this without enabling her to endanger herself.

amother

Oak

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 4:12 am

please join "Extremely Rebellious/ Off the derech teens+"
people there will understand you better.
been there. most ppl who havent been through this will not understand you and what you are going through. might give bad advice. for my 2 cents you're doing the right thing.
I give you a bracha that your husband should come around to the right hashkafa. its all part of the nisayon. hugs!

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 4:21 am

DrMom wrote:

I see what you are saying. But for most of these kids, it's not about the pants. It's davka about the adrenaline of at-risk behavior. She wants to hang out with kids on the edge, and she wants to live on the edge herself.

Usually it's not about wanting to change hashkafa. Nor are the pants the goal; they are just an entry ticket to the 'dark underbelly' that she is looking for.

Still, it's worth examining. If all the girl wants is a little more freedom, then maybe it's worth it to send her to a co-ed school where she can wear pants. At least there she won't be hanging out with the fringe of society.

amother

Olive

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 4:47 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm not going to respond to each of you separately, but thank you everyone for your support and understanding.

It's especially hard because my husband thinks I'm enabling her and doing the wrong thing, but I'm her mother and I love her and I cant turn my back on her. There are so few ways that she allows us to connect at this point, I try very hard not so say no when she asks me for something.

Yes OP. I hear both of you.
Honestly you need to tell DH "Listen; she will be doing this stuff ANYWAYS.
We have two options - to either be a part of her life or not"

I've seen both sides. My sister is struggling and all she does is get yelled at and hide it better. My parents know nothing about her and they don't even realize. My mother keeps saying "Oh she's not wearing skirts...yet" my sister just hates her more when she says that to her and when my mom says it's a phase etc.

Yet her old friend who went totally off and who has like 20 piercings, pants, the whole shebang (I'm friends with her older sister) - I was by their house. I saw her mother help her study for a test, she vented to her mother about her waitressing job and if she will be good enough to keep her and they laughed together. Her mother asked how her friends were doing, and was concerned for their welfare as well. She lives at home, is on great terms with siblings and parents. She is respectful and doesn't wear revealing clothing at home or show her siblings any secular media. ALL of her siblings are still frum. AND THEY are all HAPPY. Safe, loved.

So don't get upset when she tells you about who she is dating, what she is doing.
Smile and ask questions and take an interest in her life. Don't judge or yell and she will continue to come to you for advice and some good food.

I think you can definitely express concern for her physical welfare, request to know when she will come home. Talk to her about safe touch, not getting drunk, why drugs are bad, how boys can be manipulative, and how to know if someone is genuine and a good friend. Your DD can understand a concern for physical safety.

But the pants and a piercing; etc - just shut your mouth

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 7:42 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Hugs!
I'm sorry that you and your husband aren't on the same page. But that's understandable. This is such a complicated parasha. You are doing everything right in a wrong situation but what will really make it work is if you present a united front. I hope that your disagreements and discussions are behind closed doors.

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 7:48 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

OPs DD is not “at risk” just because she’s wearing pants and hanging out with friends at a local pizza shop. What makes you think that she’s at risk of not graduating?

I remember one year going to our community challah bake and a girl I was holding hands with while dancing had dyed hair and piercings. Her mother was really, genuinely proud of her. They were not observant, and this was not abnormal in their circles.
In the circles most of us travel in here, if this was our daughter, it would mean some serious disconnect with the expected trajectory. Even without punk hair and piercings, this is what pants mean. And unfortunately, too many kids aren't finding a place where they can continue to succeed academically and stay clean. Maybe they're too broken, who knows, but yeah, this is a kid at risk for dangerous behaviors or close to it.

thunderstorm

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 8:14 am

OP, I just want to give you hugs and tell you I would too be afraid for my child’s physical safety (the possibilities of drugs, unsafe s-x, pregnancy , falling for dangerous people etc.). I think you are an amazing mother that you are still working with her to show her how much you care.
If it gives you any chizuk, my sister and two brothers have been not frum as teens. They did dangerous things. They were exposed to really bad environments. But Baruch HaShem they all stayed away from drugs (one did smoke weed for a while but stopped). They were mechalel Shabbos and were up to no good. It took a few years. But they’ve turned around . One is super frum and ehrlich (he was actually the worst when he went off), my sister is MO and still wears pants outdoors but is Shomer Shabbos, keeps Kosher, and sends her kids to frum schools. She’s raising her children in a frum home. Different than the way we grew up , but still frum.
My other brother is not really frum, but he still has a relationship with my parents and the family. He will come to my mother for Yom Tov meals and he doesn’t do any chilul Shabbos in public. He also still feels connected to the frum community and is part of some of the community’s chesed organizations.
My point is, as scary as it is (and I too would be scared if I were in your shoes), there is still hope. It’s a very scary and tough phase. May Hashem bring whatever comfort and peace your daughter is seeking and may that peace and calm carry over to you as her parent. Many many hugs.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 8:39 am

I was that teen. I wanted to wear pants, go to rock concerts, and hang out with my friends. My parents threw me out of the house when I was 16, because they thought I would "ruin" my younger sister.

Pants and friends did not make me do drugs. Parental rejection and the great feeling of loss did. It was the only way I could think of to ease the pain of feeling so unwanted.

Make sure your kids are educated about the dangers of drugs and alcohol, in the most clinical and unemotional way possible. Same thing with zex, protection, and diseases.

If your DD is a person of basically good character, and is generally feeling loved by you, she could stand in a group of 99 people doing drugs, and have no desire whatsoever to join them. If all of her friends are dating, but she feels she's not mature enough yet, then she's not going to feel pressured.

Hair color grows out. Piercings can come out and heal up. Even tattoos can be removed.

What stays forever, is what is etched in your DD's heart. If she knows that you will always love her, and that your concern is not that she "follow the rules", but rather that she stay safe, she will not stray far.

Keep the lines of communication open. She's smart, and if you lecture her she'll think you're treating her like a baby. This will just make her want to act older and more independent that she is ready for.

My DD has green hair, buzzed short on one side. She has a lip piercing and a nose piercing. I love her to pieces, and she knows it.

I really wish frum society had a place for kids who were out of the box, or at least sitting on the edge of the box. Not all alternative teens are "bad" teens. Some are just really artistic and funky. They are still Jews!

The rejection by frum society, based only on her appearance, is what drove her OTD. It's the judgement and hypocrisy that she can't stand. She's still drug, alcohol, and boy-free, she just doesn't believe in religion anymore.

amother

Chartreuse

Sun, Nov 17 2019, 8:40 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

The bolded sentence.