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amother
OP
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 Sun, Nov 17 2019, 9:53 am
Full disclosure, my emunah is shaky.
I look at these parshos this time of year and I am bewildered. The avos and imahos seem like such regular people with the same vices we have in 2019. Last week Sarah told Avrohom to take Hagar since she couldn't have children. When Yishmael was born, Sarah felt less important to her husband and regretted suggesting that Avrohom be with Hagar. She reprimanded Avrohom and told him that hashem will deal with him for this. She's the one who suggested the whole arrangement!
Then we have Sarah lying about laughing at the idea she'd have a baby, Avrohom and Sarah concocting a lie to trick Avimelech into thinking Sarah was his sister. Avrohom didn't have emunah that hashem (who he was on literal speaking terms with) would help him thru it? We also have Lot offering his daughters for rape to the men who were trying to barge in and assault his guests, Noachs daughters got him drunk and had relations with him 2 consecutive nights, the younger one decided to advertise it by naming the child Moab (from my father.) Soon we'll have Rivka tricking Yitzchak to give yackov the brochos, Yehuda hiring a harlot and than lying about it, followed by the shvatim attempting to murder their orphaned brother who they were jealous of, and lying to their father about what really happened.
We are all taught of the people back then as godly people who spoke to hashem. The stories seem awful. Any perspective appreciated. Thank you.
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amother
Honeydew
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 9:56 am
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They certainly weren't ordinary people, but they were human. And Hashem deliberately chose to include stories with flawed behavior to guide us in our own lives.
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DrMom
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 9:59 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Full disclosure, my emunah is shaky.
I look at these parshos this time of year and I am bewildered. The avos and imahos seem like such regular people with the same vices we have in 2019. Last week Sarah told Avrohom to take Hagar since she couldn't have children. When Yishmael was born, Sarah felt less important to her husband and regretted suggesting that Avrohom be with Hagar. She reprimanded Avrohom and told him that hashem will deal with him for this. She's the one who suggested the whole arrangement!
Then we have Sarah lying about laughing at the idea she'd have a baby, Avrohom and Sarah concocting a lie to trick Avimelech into thinking Sarah was his sister. Avrohom didn't have emunah that hashem (who he was on literal speaking terms with) would help him thru it? We also have Lot offering his daughters for rape to the men who were trying to barge in and assault his guests, Noachs daughters got him drunk and had relations with him 2 consecutive nights, the younger one decided to advertise it by naming the child Moab (from my father.) Soon we'll have Rivka tricking Yitzchak to give yackov the brochos, Yehuda hiring a harlot and than lying about it, followed by the shvatim attempting to murder their orphaned brother who they were jealous of, and lying to their father about what really happened.
We are all taught of the people back then as godly people who spoke to hashem. The stories seem awful. Any perspective appreciated. Thank you. |
I find the fact that our avot and imahot are relateable to be a comfort, and reinforces my emunah rater than challenges it.
Our avot and imahot were extraordinary people, but they were still people.
I have a bigger problem understanding Lot's daughters, or, from Shoftim, the whole story of Yiftach. and what became of his daughter, or (also Shoftim) the Levite's pilagesh, or even the akeida.
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tigerwife
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:04 am
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I learned the story of Yehuda and Tamar in depth and it really clarified a lot of the questions I had (just off the bat, Yehuda didn’t lie, Tamar was veiled and unrecognizable, although this is not the main clarification I was interested in). Can you take classes on the parsha somewhere to learn more in depth? It is fascinating and there is no reason we shouldn’t have a deeper understanding of our own Torah.
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amother
Seagreen
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:09 am
The whole point is that they were fallible human beings. If they were perfect and never sinned, we could say “Well, hey, they were perfect, that’s a different species, I can’t be like them, no point trying. “ And then we might get even more cynical and think “But it’s probably a lie because nobody is perfect, mistameh the whole thing is a PR stunt and what are they not telling us? In fact the entire Torah is a giant myth.”
Instead, the KBH shows us everything, warts and all, to teach us that nobody’s perfect and these people reached the heights that they did by virtue of real effort. They weren’t supernatural beings but humans who made extraordinary efforts and sometimes even made mistakes. So when we make mistakes we shouldn’t sink into despair, hey, I blew it, I’ll never amount to anything.
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amother
Orange
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:10 am
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It proves humans are humans. All humans have strengths, flaws, feelings, emotions, challenges, and taivos. I would think that helps us understand that we can reach great heights even if we are just human. We don't have to be angels and we can make mistakes and overcome hardships.
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PinkFridge
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:12 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Full disclosure, my emunah is shaky.
I look at these parshos this time of year and I am bewildered. The avos and imahos seem like such regular people with the same vices we have in 2019. Last week Sarah told Avrohom to take Hagar since she couldn't have children. When Yishmael was born, Sarah felt less important to her husband and regretted suggesting that Avrohom be with Hagar. She reprimanded Avrohom and told him that hashem will deal with him for this. She's the one who suggested the whole arrangement!
Then we have Sarah lying about laughing at the idea she'd have a baby, Avrohom and Sarah concocting a lie to trick Avimelech into thinking Sarah was his sister. Avrohom didn't have emunah that hashem (who he was on literal speaking terms with) would help him thru it? We also have Lot offering his daughters for rape to the men who were trying to barge in and assault his guests, Noachs daughters got him drunk and had relations with him 2 consecutive nights, the younger one decided to advertise it by naming the child Moab (from my father.) Soon we'll have Rivka tricking Yitzchak to give yackov the brochos, Yehuda hiring a harlot and than lying about it, followed by the shvatim attempting to murder their orphaned brother who they were jealous of, and lying to their father about what really happened.
We are all taught of the people back then as godly people who spoke to hashem. The stories seem awful. Any perspective appreciated. Thank you. |
I will tell you the thumbnail sketches of how I learned these episodes. They work for me.
1. Hagar passionately wanted a role in Avrohom's household. Sara proposed she act as a surrogate. The idea was, she would raise in her child totally in Sara's mold. (It worked with Bilha and Zilpa.) But her gaava got in the way and she thought she could do what Sara did on her own. This explains how when the malach promised her her son would be pereh odom she was happy: it meant that he could be his own man, beholded to no one. I read this years ago in an article by R' Dovid Orlofsky. He has a shiur on this on Naaeleh.com and other platforms.
I've read elsewhere that her mistreatment of Hagar wasn't actual mistreatment at all but perceived by Hagar as such, and we know that Hagar's perception was off.
2. The lie with Avimelech: It was actually safer to pass her off as her sister than wife. As a sister, presumably the ruler would woo Avraham, vs. just kill him and take his wife. Was it a lack of emunah (minor, on their madreiga?)? Interesting question. I don't know if it's discussed anywhere.
3. Lot: No one gets it. Even the Artscroll Stone chumash calls Lot "a perplexing hero." Like Yehuda, these episodes were a necessary part of the chain of yichus for Moshiach. And with Yehuda, we get an insight into what real integrity and teshuva is in his acknowledgment of what he did.
3. Re Rivka and the brachos: An even bigger paradox to wrap your brain around (I am not responsible to clean any exploded parts  ) . Yaakov was the ish emes!
I've heard that we need the skills, the street smarts of mirmah to navigate our way through galus. And look at how Yaakov manages with Lavan, maintaining his integrity yet outsmarting him.
4. And re Yosef: the shevatim saw him as a rodef. It's a bit more complex than petty sibling rivalry.
Have you learned this yourself? If so, I guess it doesn't work for you.
I hope that you have people IRL who help you keep your faith in humanity.
ETA: I want to second (third, fourth) that yes, they were real people. Even if on a higher madreiga, they were real people.
Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Amber
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:13 am
| tigerwife wrote: | | I learned the story of Yehuda and Tamar in depth and it really clarified a lot of the questions I had (just off the bat, Yehuda didn’t lie, Tamar was veiled and unrecognizable, although this is not the main clarification I was interested in). Can you take classes on the parsha somewhere to learn more in depth? It is fascinating and there is no reason we shouldn’t have a deeper understanding of our own Torah. |
This is OT, but I tried to learn the chumash inside and I'm finding that I don't have patience to read through every meforesh. Are there really shiurim that go into the chumash in depth? Is there a way I can get hold of them?
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amother
Wine
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:18 am
I think you are looking at the parsha on a very elementary level. If you'd learn it in depth with all the miforshim (like I did) you'd have a much better understanding.
That being said it's good to remember:
אם הארישונים כמלאכים אנו כבני אדם...
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tigerwife
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 10:45 am
| amother [ Amber ] wrote: | | This is OT, but I tried to learn the chumash inside and I'm finding that I don't have patience to read through every meforesh. Are there really shiurim that go into the chumash in depth? Is there a way I can get hold of them? |
I used to listen to Mrs. Rabinowitz’s classes on the parsha in Rechavia. They were fascinating.
You may be able to access old shiurim here:
Scshiur.org
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DrMom
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 11:45 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Noachs daughters got him drunk and had relations with him 2 consecutive nights, the younger one decided to advertise it by naming the child Moab (from my father.). |
BTW, that was Lot's daughters, not Noah's.
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gingertop
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 12:15 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Full disclosure, my emunah is shaky.
I look at these parshos this time of year and I am bewildered. The avos and imahos seem like such regular people with the same vices we have in 2019. Last week Sarah told Avrohom to take Hagar since she couldn't have children. When Yishmael was born, Sarah felt less important to her husband and regretted suggesting that Avrohom be with Hagar. She reprimanded Avrohom and told him that hashem will deal with him for this. She's the one who suggested the whole arrangement!
Then we have Sarah lying about laughing at the idea she'd have a baby, Avrohom and Sarah concocting a lie to trick Avimelech into thinking Sarah was his sister. Avrohom didn't have emunah that hashem (who he was on literal speaking terms with) would help him thru it? We also have Lot offering his daughters for rape to the men who were trying to barge in and assault his guests, Noachs daughters got him drunk and had relations with him 2 consecutive nights, the younger one decided to advertise it by naming the child Moab (from my father.) Soon we'll have Rivka tricking Yitzchak to give yackov the brochos, Yehuda hiring a harlot and than lying about it, followed by the shvatim attempting to murder their orphaned brother who they were jealous of, and lying to their father about what really happened.
We are all taught of the people back then as godly people who spoke to hashem. The stories seem awful. Any perspective appreciated. Thank you. |
Not every story in the Torah is meant to be a positive example! There are villains as well. And people who tried to do their best but whose shortcomings are there for us to grapple over.
The Torah is not like the New Testament, l'havdil. It's not just loving and forgiving. The difficulties in, say, Akeidas Yitzchak, are the foundation of complicated ethical and theological debate to this day. It's not all
" Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too"
Some of the details in your OP are shaky and I think that the problem with the general BY system is that we learn Breishis during elementary school and HS is spent mostly on Shemos and Bamidbar and Devarim, and maybe we get back to the first few Parshios of Bereishis in 12th grade or seminary.
We miss out on most of Breishis with Rashi's brilliance on every half a word, Ramban arguing with his interpretation, the Sifsei Chachamim helping us understand what even the argument is about...
I don't think any few paragraphs on this site will make up for the way the stories of Breishis stay at elementary level in our school system.
I would recommend learning the parshios that interest you with a partner using an Artscroll with translated Rashi- the explanations about what compels Rashi to comment is very illuminating and is the first step in understanding even the Pshat.
Listen to shiurim. I don't have recommendations specifically for Chumash but there are some speakers who don't just skim the surface.
Edited to remove my comment about Lot's daughters.
Last edited by gingertop on Sun, Nov 17 2019, 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cheiny
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 12:15 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Full disclosure, my emunah is shaky.
I look at these parshos this time of year and I am bewildered. The avos and imahos seem like such regular people with the same vices we have in 2019. Last week Sarah told Avrohom to take Hagar since she couldn't have children. When Yishmael was born, Sarah felt less important to her husband and regretted suggesting that Avrohom be with Hagar. She reprimanded Avrohom and told him that hashem will deal with him for this. She's the one who suggested the whole arrangement!
Then we have Sarah lying about laughing at the idea she'd have a baby, Avrohom and Sarah concocting a lie to trick Avimelech into thinking Sarah was his sister. Avrohom didn't have emunah that hashem (who he was on literal speaking terms with) would help him thru it? We also have Lot offering his daughters for rape to the men who were trying to barge in and assault his guests, Noachs daughters got him drunk and had relations with him 2 consecutive nights, the younger one decided to advertise it by naming the child Moab (from my father.) Soon we'll have Rivka tricking Yitzchak to give yackov the brochos, Yehuda hiring a harlot and than lying about it, followed by the shvatim attempting to murder their orphaned brother who they were jealous of, and lying to their father about what really happened.
We are all taught of the people back then as godly people who spoke to hashem. The stories seem awful. Any perspective appreciated. Thank you. |
I’m not going to answer all of it now but I’ll pass along along what I heard in a Shiur this week and hopefully it’ll give you some perspective. It’s about not judging people.
(First, it was not Noach’s daughters who slept with him, it was Lot’s. ) There’s a story recorded in Rav Moshe Feinstein’s personal writings in which he tells the following story (I’ll retell it as best as I remember, hopefully I won’t mess up any details). Rav Moshe was asked to come visit someone who was suffering terribly with a strange illness in the hospital. He had swelling all over including his tongue. He told Rav Moshe that he was trying to find a reason for his strange illness and suffering and was asked if he could remember saying anything very bad about anyone...at night, the daughters of Lot came to him in a dream and he was reminded of having scoffed about them when giving a speech about the parsha, and saying how awful they were for not only doing that to their father, but even worse naming a child after the father as if to brag to the world about the despicable and shameful deed they’d done. The daughters then told him in the dream, you shouldn’t judge us, because we thought at that time that the entire world was destroyed and it would be the end of humanity! We thought that by what we did it would save the world as Hashem wanted! And the reason I named my son after my father was because we didn’t want people in the future to believe that the children were born by the way the non jews believe (immaculate conception) so we wanted to publicize and memorialize it was conceived in the normal way of the world and not by avoda Zara.” Therefore their actions were l’shem Shomayim. The moral of the story was not to judge just because we don’t understand, and to you I’d say certainly we can’t judge the Avos and imahos.
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amother
Wine
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 12:36 pm
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | I’m not going to answer all of it now but I’ll pass along along what I heard in a Shiur this week and hopefully it’ll give you some perspective. It’s about not judging people.
(First, it was not Noach’s daughters who slept with him, it was Lot’s. ) There’s a story recorded in Rav Moshe Feinstein’s personal writings in which he tells the following story (I’ll retell it as best as I remember, hopefully I won’t mess up any details). Rav Moshe was asked to come visit someone who was suffering terribly with a strange illness in the hospital. He had swelling all over including his tongue. He told Rav Moshe that he was trying to find a reason for his strange illness and suffering and was asked if he could remember saying anything very bad about anyone...at night, the daughters of Lot came to him in a dream and he was reminded of having scoffed about them when giving a speech about the parsha, and saying how awful they were for not only doing that to their father, but even worse naming a child after the father as if to brag to the world about the despicable and shameful deed they’d done. The daughters then told him in the dream, you shouldn’t judge us, because we thought at that time that the entire world was destroyed and it would be the end of humanity! We thought that by what we did it would save the world as Hashem wanted! And the reason I named my son after my father was because we didn’t want people in the future to believe that the children were born by the way the non jews believe (immaculate conception) so we wanted to publicize and memorialize it was conceived in the normal way of the world and not by avoda Zara.” Therefore their actions were l’shem Shomayim. The moral of the story was not to judge just because we don’t understand, and to you I’d say certainly we can’t judge the Avos and imahos. |
Just wow.
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etky
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 12:49 pm
| amother [ Violet ] wrote: | I’m not going to answer all of it now but I’ll pass along along what I heard in a Shiur this week and hopefully it’ll give you some perspective. It’s about not judging people.
(First, it was not Noach’s daughters who slept with him, it was Lot’s. ) There’s a story recorded in Rav Moshe Feinstein’s personal writings in which he tells the following story (I’ll retell it as best as I remember, hopefully I won’t mess up any details). Rav Moshe was asked to come visit someone who was suffering terribly with a strange illness in the hospital. He had swelling all over including his tongue. He told Rav Moshe that he was trying to find a reason for his strange illness and suffering and was asked if he could remember saying anything very bad about anyone...at night, the daughters of Lot came to him in a dream and he was reminded of having scoffed about them when giving a speech about the parsha, and saying how awful they were for not only doing that to their father, but even worse naming a child after the father as if to brag to the world about the despicable and shameful deed they’d done. The daughters then told him in the dream, you shouldn’t judge us, because we thought at that time that the entire world was destroyed and it would be the end of humanity! We thought that by what we did it would save the world as Hashem wanted! And the reason I named my son after my father was because we didn’t want people in the future to believe that the children were born by the way the non jews believe (immaculate conception) so we wanted to publicize and memorialize it was conceived in the normal way of the world and not by avoda Zara.” Therefore their actions were l’shem Shomayim. The moral of the story was not to judge just because we don’t understand, and to you I’d say certainly we can’t judge the Avos and imahos. |
Yes, chazal judged Lot's daughters quite favorably. In fact in one place in the gemara someone even states that the older daughter - who cooked up the scheme - was thus the one who was zochah to have kings of Israel as her descendents., because she initiated the actions while her sister only followed suit.
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etky
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 12:52 pm
| DrMom wrote: | | BTW, that was Lot's daughters, not Noah's. |
It's easy to get confused cause both stories tell the tale of survivors of mass destruction, and both involve alchohol and a s-xual aspect.
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SuperWify
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 1:21 pm
Lot’s daughters literally thought that after sedom was destroyed the world was ending and there was no one else left besides them and their father. They had no choice but to lay with him to save humanity. Or so they thought.
I don’t know why the younger daughter publicized the fact though.
Last edited by SuperWify on Sun, Nov 17 2019, 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Babyblue
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 1:27 pm
| SuperWify wrote: | Lot’s daughters literally thought that after sedom was destroyed the world was ending and there was no one else left besides them and their father. They had no choice but to jay with him to save humanity. Or so they thought.
I do t know why she publicized the fact though. |
It's a sign that the older daughter had less tznius than the younger daughter. There was some consequence of that afterward when Bnei Yisrael were fighting those nations, but I forget exactly what it was.
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Cheiny
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 3:27 pm
| SuperWify wrote: | Lot’s daughters literally thought that after sedom was destroyed the world was ending and there was no one else left besides them and their father. They had no choice but to jay with him to save humanity. Or so they thought.
I do t know why she publicized the fact though. |
I answered that above, as heard from a rov in Shiur this week.
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amother
Navy
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Sun, Nov 17 2019, 4:20 pm
Rabbi YY Rubenstien quotes this story of Lots daughters in a shiur on Parashas Vayera. He actually reads it out word forword, I believe it is printed in a sefer of Rav Moshe Feinstien. , You can find it on torahanytime.com
In general, I recommend to the OP and anyone else interested, there's a wealth of brilliant shuiurim that illuminate each of these concepts on TorahAnytime.com. I particularly love listening to Rabbi Daniel Glatstien. You see that every aspect of Torah is interconnected over the generations and nothing is only as it seems.
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