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Poor and middle class attitudes in America
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amother




Orange
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 5:49 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
In no system can every educated person stand on their own two feet.


In a system where you starve if you don't stand on your own feet it works very well. Because there's pressure and every person has an instinct to want to survive.
If you know that there's no pressure and the system will catch you when you fall.. you'll be more likely to not get up again.
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:15 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
In a system where you starve if you don't stand on your own feet it works very well. Because there's pressure and every person has an instinct to want to survive.
If you know that there's no pressure and the system will catch you when you fall.. you'll be more likely to not get up again.


This isn't true.
Life expectancy in societies where there is no safety net are extremely low. Children die all the time from starvation. People live on the streets or in cardboard boxes without running water or any amenities. People die all the time from treatable diseases. People want to survive- but the poverty kills them.
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:29 pm
roses wrote:
This isn't true.
Life expectancy in societies where there is no safety net are extremely low. Children die all the time from starvation. People live on the streets or in cardboard boxes without running water or any amenities. People die all the time from treatable diseases. People want to survive- but the poverty kills them.

The bolded happens in America as well even with all our social programs. And the rich actually do give money to help poor people in other countries which is something that they would not be able to do if you take away 70% of their money so you cant have it both ways.
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:36 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
The bolded happens in America as well even with all our social programs. And the rich actually do give money to help poor people in other countries which is something that they would not be able to do if you take away 70% of their money so you cant have it both ways.


The degree to which this occurs in the US vs. undeveloped countries is incomparable. And the homeless situation in the US is a very different problem than just the sheer poverty in the countries where there is no safety net. In the US, mental illness, drug addiction, and PTSD are the most complicating factors of homelessness. And the safety net is still there in a network of soup kitchens, shelters if wanted, emergency medical care, available government benefits, etc.

There is no comparison to the large scale issues of poverty in underdeveloped countries where there literally IS no safety net, and infants are living on the streets with their moms. Where there is no foster care or family shelters or food stamps and WIC and Medicaid.
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leah233




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:45 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I don't have time to respond to many of the points here, but re the bolded:

Turnus Rufus asked Rabbi Akiva: “If your G‑d loves the poor, why doesn’t He feed them?”

Said Rabbi Akiva to him: “So that we should be saved from purgatory (in the merit of the charity we give).”

Said he to him: “On the contrary: for this you deserve to be punished.

“I’ll give you an analogy. This is like a king who got angry at his slave and locked him away in a dungeon, and commanded If your G‑d loves the poor, why doesn’t He feed them?that he not be given to eat or to drink—and a person came along and gave him to eat and to drink. When the king hears of this, is he not angry at that person? And you are called slaves, as it is written (Leviticus 25:55), ‘The children of Israel are My slaves.’”

Said Rabbi Akiva to him: “I’ll give you an analogy.

“This is like a king who got angry at his child and locked him away in a dungeon, and commanded that he not be given to eat or to drink—and a person came along and gave him to eat and to drink. When the king hears of this, does he not reward that person?

“And we are G‑d’s children, as it is written (Deuteronomy 14:1), ‘You are children of the L‑rd your G‑d.’”

==============

Yes, navy, G-d can feed the poor but right now he is using the United States government as one of his shluchim Smile. I for one, am very grateful to live in a medinah shel chesed.


The Posuk says Chesed L'Umim Chatos

The literal meaning is that a non-Jew can do Tzedoka and Chesed to gain atonement since he can't bring a Korbon Chatos.

Chazal however say that it also has another meaning. It as a reference to the non-Jewish mindset that you are doing "Chesed" by forcibly taking money from A to support B. Not only isn't that chesed it is an aviera.

The posuk is saying they think they are doing Chesed but they really are doing a Chatos with this type of "Chesed".

When you give your own money you are a Tzadeikis when you give someone else's you are a thief.


Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:46 pm
small bean wrote:
I'm sorry but the premise is sad. I'm not going to comment on stories on how they could've made their life better or how they can make it better now, because you're missing the whole point.

The point is they made choices, whether not to have life insurance, or whether to not work at all, or to not save for the future. Whatever the details dont matter, the fact is your lifestyle is a choice.

And no one is advocating that these stories could've been preventable or that we should judge these people, all we are saying is they had choices, they have choices and that they can come the situation. That is the whole conversation.

We can argue about stories from today to tomorrow, we can bring stories of people with every disadvantage that became very wealthy. We can being stories about people with milliona in debt and turned their life around at 50. This is not about anecdotes.

This is an outlook on life. One is people are a victim of their circumstances and one is circumstances dont make you a victim.

That is the whole discussion summed up.


Small bean, I know you posted this earlier today but I'd like you to respond when you can.

I asked you to explain what the people in my story could have done differently. I am still asking you that. In the case of the three non-Jewish women I wrote about, the facts are exactly the way I wrote it. So you can respond. As for the frum families, although I changed some identifying details, I would like you to explain, based on the facts I presented, exactly what they could have done differently.

Personally, in my own life, barring chas vsholom a national disaster, I am pretty well set up for life. But I do know that this is just because Hashem decided that this is what I should get, not because I was smarter or had more foresight, or made better choices, or anything like that.

You don't want to believe that poverty can literally happen to anybody, but I am telling you that it is so. This world is not equal opportunity, not everyone can become wealthy, and not everyone can rise above their poverty. Even in America.

Every single person who is reading my post has absolutely no idea what it means to be truly poor. In our own community, we have a safety net that is unsurpassed. The families that I mentioned above did not, in the end, lose their homes due to the kindness and tzedakah of people who helped them out. And even for the people around us, people that I have met and had fallen on hard times, the safety net of food stamps, earned income credit, medicaid and other government programs helped them stay alive and even thrive.

There are countries that you can travel to that you can see real poverty. I'm not much of a traveler, but I have been told that there are parts of India where there are literally children sleeping in the streets and begging for food. I'm sure that there are other countries like that as well, again, I am not updated on the world's worst countries at the moment.

Do you know what happens when there is no safety net? Do you know which people are the ones that fall through the cracks? The old, the young, the disabled - these are society's vulnerable people. The women I spoke about were divorced or single, and had fallen on hard times through no fault of their own. What happens to such women when there is no safety net?
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:49 pm
leah233 wrote:
The Posuk says Chesed L'Umim Chatos

The literal meaning is that a non-Jew can do Tzedoka and Chesed to gain atonement since he can't bring a Korbon Chatos.

Chazal however say that it also has another meaning. It as a reference to the non-Jewish mindset that you are doing "Chesed" by forcibly taking money from A to support B. Not only isn't that chesed it is an aviera. The posuk is saying they think they are doing Chesed but they really are doing a Chatos.


Which part of your taxes are you against? Let's go through the list.

Police? Are you ok with paying taxes towards a police force? What about an army? Do you agree that our country needs to spend on defense? What about roads? Is that ok? Schools? Public libraries? A court system?

Oh, you're against food stamps, is that it? So you're ok with people starving if they don't have food?

The government is allowed to tax the people for the common good of all.


Last edited by Mommyg8 on Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:49 pm
roses wrote:
The degree to which this occurs in the US vs. undeveloped countries is incomparable. And the homeless situation in the US is a very different problem than just the sheer poverty in the countries where there is no safety net. In the US, mental illness, drug addiction, and PTSD are the most complicating factors of homelessness. And the safety net is still there in a network of soup kitchens, shelters if wanted, emergency medical care, available government benefits, etc.

There is no comparison to the large scale issues of poverty in underdeveloped countries where there literally IS no safety net, and infants are living on the streets with their moms. Where there is no foster care or family shelters or food stamps and WIC and Medicaid.

Actually, the number one reason people enter the homeless shelter in NY is because of domestic violence. The number two reason is evictions . Not mental illness or drug addiction.
https://brooklyneagle.com/arti.....port/

Not sure which countries you are referring to but if you provide your sources then I will check to see if there werent any rich Americans providing assistance to the people of that particular country.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:55 pm
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
In a system where you starve if you don't stand on your own feet it works very well. Because there's pressure and every person has an instinct to want to survive.
If you know that there's no pressure and the system will catch you when you fall.. you'll be more likely to not get up again.


This response has no connection to my post about education.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:57 pm
I think my posts make it sound as if I am pro high taxes, I am not. I am mostly a Republican/conservative voter, and I have consistently voted for the Republican candidates. I voted for Trump in the last election, and I will likely vote for him again. I am not a socialist. I don't believe in sharing the wealth equally.

But I don't think that everything the Republicans say is Toras Moshe either. There is a lot of misinformation and just plain lies that are coming from their side as well.

I have written about studies that show that the rich are not paying a higher effective tax rate than the poor. In general, the laws of this country are written that there are so many deductions for wealthy people that it is almost a joke when they keep talking about raising the tax rate - no-one is actually going to pay that rate. People who are paying 40% of their income to taxes are living in high tax states/cities such as New York, if they would move to Florida, which many do and did, their taxes would be WAY lower. Income from capital gains and dividends are taxed at a lower rate altogether - and it is generally the rich who have income from these sources.

And as small bean has implied many, many times over, there are a lot of ways to make your income tax free as there are a lot of loopholes in the law. Savvy people such as small bean take advantage of these laws and are not paying taxes on a large part of their income.
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leah233




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:58 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Which part of your taxes are you against? Let's go through the list.

Police? Are you ok with paying taxes towards a police force? What about an army? Do you agree that our country needs to spend on defense? What about roads? Is that ok? Schools? Public libraries? A court system?

Oh, you're against food stamps, is that it? So you're ok with people starving if they don't have food?

The government is allowed to tax the people for the common good of all.


You are ascribing things to me that I never said so I'll only respond that , "the common good" and "help the unfortunate poor" is exactly what the communists said and based their ideology on.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:59 pm
leah233 wrote:
You are ascribing things to me that I never said so I'll only respond that , "the common good" and "help the unfortunate poor" is exactly what the communists said and based their ideology on.


Except that the United States is not currently communist.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:02 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
Actually, the number one reason people enter the homeless shelter in NY is because of domestic violence. The number two reason is evictions . Not mental illness or drug addiction.
https://brooklyneagle.com/arti.....port/

Not sure which countries you are referring to but if you provide your sources then I will check to see if there werent any rich Americans providing assistance to the people of that particular country.


Do you vote libertarian?
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roses




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:02 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
Actually, the number one reason people enter the homeless shelter in NY is because of domestic violence. The number two reason is evictions . Not mental illness or drug addiction.
https://brooklyneagle.com/arti.....port/

Not sure which countries you are referring to but if you provide your sources then I will check to see if there werent any rich Americans providing assistance to the people of that particular country.


The people living on the streets are different than the people entering shelters. Different population.
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:06 pm
roses wrote:
The people living on the streets are different than the people entering shelters. Different population.

NY has a right to shelter law that any homeless person can take advantage of. Many people living on the streets have been through the shelter system which can be dangerous and/or difficult to deal with in itself so they choose to stay in the streets.
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amother




Coral
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:06 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Except that the United States is not currently communist.


Well, it's rapidly turning socialist, and the rhetoric coming from the Democratic presidential candidates is sounding eerily like communist propaganda.
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:09 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
Do you vote libertarian?

I dont vote but I am concerned about what is going on in America and the leanings towards communism (disguised as democrat socialist) so I may start voting. Why do you ask?
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amother




OP
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:13 pm
Communism is bad, but not because the Russia that the communists overthrew was so wonderful. Tearing down a broken system isn't easy, but building a new one that works is the hard part when it comes to revolutions.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:20 pm
amother [ Coral ] wrote:
Well, it's rapidly turning socialist, and the rhetoric coming from the Democratic presidential candidates is sounding eerily like communist propaganda.


I'm not voting for anyone who has Communist or socialist leanings.

I'm just pointing out that getting rid of the safety net is not a good thing. And that the government does have some obligations to take care of it's citizens.

There are lots of people who are professional "takers" and this is a serious problem, on the other hand I'm not ready to get rid of all safety nets altogether.

As for health care and higher education - I like the idea, in theory, of national healthcare, and I think the system we have in place right now is very, very broken, but I don't see any real solutions that everyone will agree to and be ok with. I don't see why the government pays for elementary school and high school but not for college - as this is indeed a barrier for many. OTOH, in countries in Europe where there is free college, it is not exactly free in the sense that anyone can just register. There is a system, and you have to follow it, and most cannot get into college, from what I understand.

What I really hate about the Democrat platform is their tendency to legislate every part of our lives. I hate this more than I hate higher taxes.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 7:25 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
I dont vote but I am concerned about what is going on in America and the leanings towards communism (disguised as democrat socialist) so I may start voting. Why do you ask?


You don’t vote??? Why on earth not? You seem very disgruntled with the current state of affairs.

I asked because your opinions on what government spend on.
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