Cant stand how much money it costs to be frum

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 4:59 am

naomi2 wrote:

Tuition, food, and housing in a frum community is unavoidably expensive. Additionally, Having large families is part of our culture. The cost of living frum life has very little to do with keeping up with the jones's

You don't have to live within an eiruv. It's nice but not necessary to be frum.
You can homeschool your kids...
You can live very simply like jews did a couple hundred years ago. They were also frum. I'm sure they didn't invite 300 people to a chassuna, didn't expect several jewlery gifts for the kallah, no apartment as a wedding gift, no year in seminary or yeshiva in Israel. No brand name clothes and Italian shoes, they didn't eat meat every day only on shabbos and wearing a sheitel isn't necessary to be frum either. You can wear a tichel.
The question is, who nowadays is okay with living simply? I'd say 99 % of people aren't okay with it. But in order to be frum you technically just need a siddur, a few machzorim, 3 sets of tznius clothes per person, mezuzos, and a fleishig and milchigs set of cuttlery and plates, pans etc.
And then obviously what you need for the chagim.

If you want the frum lifestyle .. you have to pay the price for it. That's the lifestyle though, doesn't make you more frum and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with frumkeit at all.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 5:05 am

tilot37354 wrote:

In America you need to make $500k a year to put food on table, and in Israel there are no job opportunities to make $50k a year, so either way it's a struggle. I wouldn't make Aliyah for financial reasons unless you have $2M in the bank and want to retire on that. That would be possible in Israel, but not in America.

500k a year to put food on the table? How many kids do you have... 22?
That number is ridiculous.
Especially "put food on the table" means necessities. If you need 500 k for necessities I really wanna know what you consider a necessity.

We live in europe and make 40.000 euros after taxes and we have a good life. We "only" have 3 kids though.

banana123

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 5:36 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Absolutely.
I am frum, do not own a sheital, would have to look very hard to find a home *outside* an eiruv and food that was **not** kosher - and you'd probably have to pay extra for those.
For my elementry aged-children I pay the eqivelant of $60 a month in tuition.
The only serious expense on the list is tuition for my highschooler but that's more because she dorms in a private school.
It doesn't have to be that way.
I understand aliyah is not for everyone but it is possible to be a frum Jew without any extra expences.
Being frum in America and paying the price is a good reminder that America is not the ideal place to be a Jew.

And like $4 or $7.50 for mikva.
And $2.50 per dunk for men.

banana123

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 5:43 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

As someone who has been living in Israel almost 20 years now, every time a thread like this turns into, "Everyone should just move to Israel", I groan inwardly. I so don't want to get involved or start controversy, but I don't think it's fair to paint such a carefree rosy picture either. It does a complete disservice to make things out to be so wonderful when, in actuality, you better want it very badly because it aint easy at all.

My younger girls' elementary (not high school) tuition is very cheap. That's it. High school is expensive and my boys' elementary schools and high schools are even more.

Salaries here are far lower, while many of the cost of living categories cost the same amount or more than in America. Sure it depends on where you live, and many women on Imamother do live away from the cities where everything is cheaper. If that's what you're considering, wonderful. But all these posts that say, 'Life in America is so expensive!" It's silly to say, "No, it's not. I live in Wichita and my mortgage is so affordable!".

It is a well known rule in Israel to never look at average salary, since the average is so skewed by population in high tech. You must look at the median salary.

Yes, we have subsidised medicine, which has it's pros and cons. It's so great to be able to take a strep test or a blood test without paying out of pocket. It's hard to have to wait months and months for an important test, and none of my 3 sons' medications are included. That adds up to a lot every month. So again, realize that it's not all perfect.

(These are just some of my personal experiences. Everyone here will have different experiences and different opinions. These are mine, I'm entitled to them, and there's no need for every Israeli on this board to post in disagreement. These are my experiences over the past 20 years, no need to argue or disagree. If your experience has been vastly different, that's great for you. I'm just trying to present all sides.)

If you're on Facebook, you can peruse such groups as, "Living Financially Smarter in Israel" to understand real-life struggles that exist here. Again, I'm not saying one shouldn't make Aliya. I did and I wouldn't have it any other way. There is nowhere else I would want to raise my kids. But if you're coming because you heard it would improve your financial situation, you may be disappointed.

Exactly. Firstly we don't need more people coming here expecting to make it and then finding out it's not all perfume and roses.

Secondly the idealized version people read is just ridiculous. Most Israelis live in debt - deep in debt. Don't come to Israel for financial reasons. Come if you love Israel and are willing to give up your American lifestyle to make it work.

People who come and fail, going back after a few years, are the ones who come and expect to live an American lifestyle on an Israeli salary. It simply does not work. Period. End of discussion. You will have to compromise.

Those who came and did make it work all switched to an Israeli lifestyle when they arrived or soon thereafter.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 5:51 am

banana123 wrote:

But I think that is the point. An Israeli lifestyle is a perfectly fine way to live a religious life. It's possible to be frum without all the bells and whistles that are considered necessary in other places.

amother

Slategray

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:10 am

chanchy123 wrote:

My point was you can be a perfectly good Torah Jew without the added expense of the whole American frum lifestyle.
Being frum is not and should not be synonymous with a tremendously expensive lifestyle.

We aren't really talking about the "expensive lifestyle". We aren't talking about "bells and whistles".

We're talking about how much it costs to run a frum household (both in America and Israel), from tuition to insurance to food to clothing to housing. These things, especially for large families, add up to almost unsustainable amounts, EVEN when living simply and not keeping up with the Cohens.

banana123

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:16 am

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

Forget groceries, rent/mortgage expenses. Think shabbos, Yom tov expenses- each holiday comes with large bills, mikvah, schar limud, plus plus plus... this is just for Frum yidden.

Shabbat and Y"T don't need to be super-expensive, there's no need for 3 courses and then dessert. Especially if it means you won't have enough and may end up in debt.
עשה שבתך חול ואל תצטרך לבריות

Mortgage, rent, easy enough to reduce if you are willing to live outside the big communities.

Leaves you with tuition and mikva, budget for the mikva and it's not such a big deal, tuition is a bigger deal.

chanchy123

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:17 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Yes, being an immigrant in Israel puts you in a financial disadvantage like anywhere else in the world. Yes, many Israelis spend beyond their means (probably like many Americans too). Yes, most Israeli religious Jews live simpler lives than most American religious Jews. Yes, most probably making Aliyah will not be a magical solution to your financial woes.
Israel is not financial heaven. But I think it is important to correct the misconception that all Israelis are struggling financially if not poor. There is a wide range here like everywhere else. But living in Israel and aliyah does not mean you are destined to be poor either.
I was not blessed to make aliyah - thankfully my parents were brave enough to make sure I didnt have to. I am ao appreciative to them that they gave me the opportunity to live here and so happy I never had the nisayon of raising a Jewish family in America.
Tova Haeretz meod meod.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:42 am

The biggest difference in salaries in israel and america are actually for proffesionals; doctors, para- medical providers, lawyers, dentists, orthodotists, nurses, accountants, social workers,archtechts ect. all have a much much lower earning potentail (some like social workers and nurses make such low salaries it's laughable). and people in most of those fields are making 8 -15k average.

The hi- tech sector currently is great but not everyone has that kind of brain.

What we do not have here is the crazy american frum lifestyle where you need to be what the rest of america would call upper-middle class (250k is upper middle class) to surrvive with a family of 5 kids.

Here it is possible to live a simple but comfortable, frum lifestyle on 25-30k nis a month (which is quiet doable if both spouses work)
The reason most israeli's (secular and religious) I know are in debt is the same reason most americans are in debt - we all want more then we can afford, or we want to give our kids more then we can afford.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:51 am

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

Forget groceries, rent/mortgage expenses. Think shabbos, Yom tov expenses- each holiday comes with large bills, mikvah, schar limud, plus plus plus... this is just for Frum yidden.

What are your shabbos expenses?
Expensive outfits? Jewlery, perfume, 3 course meals? Same with yt... People want several outfits for each chag. For each child. That's not a necessity. Also the amounts of food people put on the table. Yes we are supposed to buy nice things for shabbos.. should still be in our price range though.

What other expenses do you have for shabbos and yt? Pessach Hotel isn't a necessity and vacations for chol hamoed aren't either.

We used to wanna have shabbos like everyone else.. lots and lots of food, different types of meat, several salads ... Lots of it went into the trash on sunday. So now we have 2 salads, one type of meat or chicken, one soup, and one cake.
Is it super fancy? No. Does noone leave the table hungry? Yes. And it's delicious even though we don't go bankrupt over it. Shabbos and Yom tov things need to be better than weekday things. But my shabbos meal doesn't have to be better than a millionaires meal on a tuesday. It has to be better than MY meal on tuesday. If I can only afford chicken.. chicken will be special for shabbos. If someone else can afford tongue every day.. then they need to get an expensive piece of meat so it will be special. Doesn't mean I have to get that aswell.

Remember... hashem gives us what we NEED.
He doesn't expect us to spend what we don't have.

chanchy123

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:55 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

This is my point.

"So just make Aliyah" seems to be thrown around regularly on Imamother as some sort of cure-all. Anyone doing so WILL be an immigrant in Israel and it's important to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly that comes with that so one can make an informed decision without thinking that it's all marvelous.

Yes. But think about your children and grandchildren, you will be giving them a head start. I assume you believe that one day (hopefully soon) all of am yisrael will return? Again, aliyah is not easy and obviously not everyone can do it - but it is short-sighted to just think of your generation.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 26 2019, 6:56 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Insurance and housing prices are also issues in the secular world. So you would have that problem either way. This thread is about things that are a problem because one is frum. And clothing ... There's very cheap clothing stores and very expensive ones. Also has nothing to do with being frum or not . Some non jewish people buy Chanel even though they can't afford it.

Same with food.. you can buy vegetables and fruit in regular stores so the only things that are more expensive are the ones with a hechsher. The question is ... Is eating chicken or meat a necessity (daily)?