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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 12:40 pm
small bean wrote:
So it is that time of year, where we give thanks for living in this mostly free country.

So no matter where you are on the political spectrum can you give thanks to the country for something specific that was done to make your life better this year.

No attacks on what anyone gives thanks to. We don't have to agree that it is good.

I thank all the states that have signed laws to give the unborn a chance at life. This year was a change for me in the fact that I went from pro choice to extremely pro life (I'm libertarian on most social issues, which means government should stay out of people's business - like Dave Rubin for those who know who he is - o dont agree with everything he says but mostly on social issues)
What made you change your mind?

I'm thankful that as an adult only I have authority to make medical decisions for myself.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 12:44 pm
Sebastian wrote:
What made you change your mind?

I'm thankful that as an adult only I have authority to make medical decisions for myself.


I don't think there is any Pro-Life Group that is against abortion to save Life of Mother or to avoid Permanent Injury to Mother. I am not worried about that.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 12:46 pm
Sebastian wrote:
What made you change your mind?

I'm thankful that as an adult only I have authority to make medical decisions for myself.


I was not okay with late term abortion. Meaning if the baby can live on it's own, at like 25 weeks, than abortion is not okay anymore. (From a religious perspective, obviously I know it is not okay, but I was looking at if from a logical one) That was my opinion. My position was based on the fact that the baby is not breathing on it's own, you're not really ending a life. Then I watched this video accidentally on youtube, and it was showing graphically how abortions are done. (To this day, I dont know why it came into my feed, I still have nightmares). And seeing that was I was like, they are babies, whether I like it or not. They are no different than my grandmother on life support. Just because they can't breathe on their own, doesn't take away the fact that they have their own DNA, and that they are their own person. It took away the feeling I had that it was a potential life. It became a real life.
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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 12:56 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I don't think there is any Pro-Life Group that is against abortion to save Life of Mother or to avoid Permanent Injury to Mother. I am not worried about that.


The first part of my post and the 2nd part are not connected. I'm somewhere in the middle on the abortion spectrum, but lean more pro life.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 2:09 pm
I am thankful that I live in a state which is not trying to impose religious right Christian beliefs on everyone regarding abortion. And that if I am ever in the situation where halacha would sanction an abortion, I would have the right to follow the halachic ruling of my Rav and adhere to my own religious beliefs- and not Christian beliefs.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 2:16 pm
roses wrote:
I am thankful that I live in a state which is not trying to impose religious right Christian beliefs on everyone regarding abortion. And that if I am ever in the situation where halacha would sanction an abortion, I would have the right to follow the halachic ruling of my Rav and adhere to my own religious beliefs- and not Christian beliefs.


It is not Christian belief. It is scientific belief.

And also halacha is inlign with the prolife movement. So I'm not sure where you think that if halahch would demand an abortion, you wouldn't be able to get one.,
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keym




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 2:24 pm
Despite being a Republican on the "wrong side" of the conversation, I am grateful that I live in a country that has a system of holding our leaders accountable for their actions with the checks and balances.

And about abortion, small bean, if you go through the archives, a woman shared her story of a miscarriage after 14 weeks that wasn't expelling itself naturally, causing infection, and how she had to go out of state, paying a tremendous amount of money out of pocket because either there was no legal way to do the D&C in her state or no hospital (no Catholic) who would perform the procedure.
I remember it gave me much to think about.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 2:51 pm
small bean wrote:
It is not Christian belief. It is scientific belief.

And also halacha is inlign with the prolife movement. So I'm not sure where you think that if halahch would demand an abortion, you wouldn't be able to get one.,


This is wrong. Halacha sanctions abortion in many instances where Christian ideology- and the states that follow it- wouldn't permit it. Halacha is much more lenient on abortion than these laws would allow.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 3:25 pm
roses wrote:
This is wrong. Halacha sanctions abortion in many instances where Christian ideology- and the states that follow it- wouldn't permit it. Halacha is much more lenient on abortion than these laws would allow.

Just because a law which limits abortion may align with some aspects of Christian beliefs does not mean that the policy or its proponents were motivated by Christian theology.

There are strong scientific arguments against abortion in many cases. These perspectives often persuade people of all religions, or no religion, to oppose abortion.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 3:29 pm
DrMom wrote:
Just because a law which limits abortion may align with some aspects of Christian beliefs does not mean that the policy or its proponents were motivated by Christian theology.

There are strong scientific arguments against abortion in many cases. These perspectives often persuade people of all religions, or no religion, to oppose abortion.


The problem is when these beliefs contradict halacha. Scientific beliefs aside, we are required to follow halacha. Which will be hard or impossible to do in the states that adopt draconian abortion laws.

ETA:. And the facts are that the groups lobbying for draconian abortion laws are consistently Christian. The anti abortion movement is a Christian movement. While there may be non-Christians that align with those beliefs, we should not mistake the source of this movement and the inherent risks to Jews


Last edited by roses on Thu, Nov 28 2019, 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 3:53 pm
Halbach's only allows abortion when the mothers life is in danger (all these allow for that) or when the baby can't live on it's own ever ( all these laws allow for that)

I don't think there is a case in halacha, for a healthy mother to abort a healthy baby. That is what these laws don't allow. Unless I'm wrong about that. I am not a rabbi, so you can correct me if I'm wrong.

There are prolife groups by Jews, muslims, Christian's and atheists. The pro life argument if you take time to listen to it, never mentions religion of any sort. I know because I listened to every argument. It is purely based on the fact that there is an independent life in the womb.

Editing to add that in general you should never make an argument based on religious belief, because that is not universal.


Last edited by small bean on Thu, Nov 28 2019, 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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itsmeima




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 3:56 pm
keym wrote:
Despite being a Republican on the "wrong side" of the conversation, I am grateful that I live in a country that has a system of holding our leaders accountable for their actions with the checks and balances.

And about abortion, small bean, if you go through the archives, a woman shared her story of a miscarriage after 14 weeks that wasn't expelling itself naturally, causing infection, and how she had to go out of state, paying a tremendous amount of money out of pocket because either there was no legal way to do the D&C in her state or no hospital (no Catholic) who would perform the procedure.
I remember it gave me much to think about.


That's exactly why I am pro-choice.

There's nothing more important to me than freedom of religion.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 4:04 pm
keym wrote:
Despite being a Republican on the "wrong side" of the conversation, I am grateful that I live in a country that has a system of holding our leaders accountable for their actions with the checks and balances.

And about abortion, small bean, if you go through the archives, a woman shared her story of a miscarriage after 14 weeks that wasn't expelling itself naturally, causing infection, and how she had to go out of state, paying a tremendous amount of money out of pocket because either there was no legal way to do the D&C in her state or no hospital (no Catholic) who would perform the procedure.
I remember it gave me much to think about.


I am grateful for checks and balances.

The baby wasnt alive. So again it has nothing to do with abortion. I'm not sure how it was a problem. Sounds like medical malpractice. I hope she sued. Either way the laws allow for treatment of miscarriage and d&cs. And to equate the killing of a baby to a miscarriage is disrespectful to those who had a miscarriage.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 5:51 pm
To the poster on the other thread who questioned how I can support government interference here, I'm explaining.

The role of government is to protect life. That is their whole and only role. If you believe that there is a separate life in the womb, than you believe that it is a criminal act (on the part of the doctor) to kill the baby.

Regarding halacha, I have never heard or a situation where an abortion is allowed by halacha without a medical reason. Point me to a situation like that, because I dont know.

I'm looking at this not from a religious perspective, but from a scientific one. The question is when is the baby a life?

You all agree that you can't kill the baby once it comes through the birth canal(or at least I hope so). So at what point does the baby have human rights?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:06 pm
small bean wrote:
Halbach's only allows abortion when the mothers life is in danger (all these allow for that) or when the baby can't live on it's own ever ( all these laws allow for that)

I don't think there is a case in halacha, for a healthy mother to abort a healthy baby. That is what these laws don't allow. Unless I'm wrong about that. I am not a rabbi, so you can correct me if I'm wrong.

There are prolife groups by Jews, muslims, Christian's and atheists. The pro life argument if you take time to listen to it, never mentions religion of any sort. I know because I listened to every argument. It is purely based on the fact that there is an independent life in the womb.

Editing to add that in general you should never make an argument based on religious belief, because that is not universal.


You're wrong.
Halacha considers health of the mother, not just life of the mother. So if the mothers health will be negatively affected, but not in an immediately life threatening way, halacha will still value that over the fetus

Emotional/mental health is valued in the same way as physical health in halacha- this is an important area which is not recognized by Christian ideology. In the case of rape, incest, or a teen pregnancy, halacha will err on the side of allowing an abortion to protect the child's/teens/woman's mental health. Halacha is not pro life to all ends. If a teenage girl gets pregnant, the Rav will carefully consider the emotional toll a pregnancy will take on her and advise accordingly, as per halacha. We don't believe teenage girls' lives and futures need to be ruined for a teenage "mistake". Her life and emotional health will come before the fetus.

Quality of life is also carefully considered. Abortion can be allowed even if the child can be kept alive, but the child may suffer due to diagnosed conditions. There are many other leniencies for quality of life.

There are numerous other considerations that are evaluated when asking a shaila about abortion. The bottom line is that we have our own halachos about this which are a lot more nuanced lenient than the Christian right would like. We have our own values about this topic, that don't necessarily align with Christian ideology or the laws being passed in those heavily Christian states. And having those laws in place would not allow us to practice abortion when halacha requires it to protect the mothers emotional health, physical health, quality of life, and not just "life of the mother".
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Fabulous




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:13 pm
roses wrote:
You're wrong.
Halacha considers health of the mother, not just life of the mother. So if the mothers health will be negatively affected, but not in an immediately life threatening way, halacha will still value that over the fetus

Emotional/mental health is valued in the same way as physical health in halacha- this is an important area which is not recognized by Christian ideology. In the case of rape, incest, or a teen pregnancy, halacha will err on the side of allowing an abortion to protect the child's/teens/woman's mental health. Halacha is not pro life to all ends. If a teenage girl gets pregnant, the Rav will carefully consider the emotional toll a pregnancy will take on her and advise accordingly, as per halacha. We don't believe teenage girls' lives and futures need to be ruined for a teenage "mistake". Her life and emotional health will come before the fetus.

Quality of life is also carefully considered. Abortion can be allowed even if the child can be kept alive, but the child may suffer due to diagnosed conditions. There are many other leniencies for quality of life.

There are numerous other considerations that are evaluated when asking a shaila about abortion. The bottom line is that we have our own halachos about this which are a lot more nuanced lenient than the Christian right would like. We have our own values about this topic, that don't necessarily align with Christian ideology or the laws being passed in those heavily Christian states. And having those laws in place would not allow us to practice abortion when halacha requires it to protect the mothers emotional health, physical health, quality of life, and not just "life of the mother".


this. I am against abortion on religious grounds and late term abortions I.e. after they survive on their own for political belief. But if the government completely bans them unless they go through hoops that may include a doctor panel that doesn't know the patient, that's too far as well.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:33 pm
What really scares me about draconian abortion laws is they'd also criminalize miscarriage. Imagine going to the hospital in middle of a miscarriage and they first have to call a detective because it's a possible criminal case. And then you're subject to invasive questioning and maybe even physical exams. And if they find out that you did or failed to do something that contributed to the fetus's death, you could be criminally charged. How many women will choose not to go to the hospital at all for miscarriage and endanger their lives?

I wish this was fear mongering but a number of states have already passed "heartbeat billd" that ban abortion after 6 weeks, when most women don't even know they're pregnant.

And it's odd that the states passing the most extreme abortion bills also have the worst maternal and infant mortality rates. After all this is all about saving lives. What if... SHOCKER... outlawing abortion doesn't really do that much to save lives?
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:42 pm
Jeanette wrote:
What really scares me about draconian abortion laws is they'd also criminalize miscarriage. Imagine going to the hospital in middle of a miscarriage and they first have to call a detective because it's a possible criminal case. And then you're subject to invasive questioning and maybe even physical exams. And if they find out that you did or failed to do something that contributed to the fetus's death, you could be criminally charged. How many women will choose not to go to the hospital at all for miscarriage and endanger their lives?

I wish this was fear mongering but a number of states have already passed "heartbeat billd" that ban abortion after 6 weeks, when most women don't even know they're pregnant.

And it's odd that the states passing the most extreme abortion bills also have the worst maternal and infant mortality rates. After all this is all about saving lives. What if... SHOCKER... outlawing abortion doesn't really do that much to save lives?


The whole thing of miscarriages is a lie. It has been proven to be so and it is really fear mongering.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:46 pm
I want to stay away from halacha, because A I dont think your right but I dont think any of us are rabbis and B because you never make an argument on religious grounds.

That being said, answer this simple question at what point is a baby in the womb a baby. And please dont go to miscarriage, because that has nothing to do with the question.

The most deaths per day in the US is abortion at about 2400 a day. That is the #1 killer in the US.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Nov 28 2019, 6:50 pm
Jeanette wrote:
What really scares me about draconian abortion laws is they'd also criminalize miscarriage. Imagine going to the hospital in middle of a miscarriage and they first have to call a detective because it's a possible criminal case. And then you're subject to invasive questioning and maybe even physical exams. And if they find out that you did or failed to do something that contributed to the fetus's death, you could be criminally charged. How many women will choose not to go to the hospital at all for miscarriage and endanger their lives?

I wish this was fear mongering but a number of states have already passed "heartbeat billd" that ban abortion after 6 weeks, when most women don't even know they're pregnant.

And it's odd that the states passing the most extreme abortion bills also have the worst maternal and infant mortality rates. After all this is all about saving lives. What if... SHOCKER... outlawing abortion doesn't really do that much to save lives?


These are significant and serious concerns. The criminalizing issue is not a far off concern. It's very real and worrisome. In Mike Pences state (I think Indiana) he passed a law that fetuses needed to be buried. Making it criminal not to bury a fetus. I think it was only in certain cases, but it's not a stretch to realize that it is a slippery slope, and criminalizing miscarrying into the toilet is a definite possibility with these radical people.

Other cases have come up with women who have become septic, and they were refused a D and C even when there was no chance of survival of the fetus because of being in Catholic hospitals- so the women died.

Or women who died from ruptured ectopic pregnancies because removing the fetus was "abortion"

Or women with cancer died because of not being allowed to terminate the pregnancy- and treatment couldn't be given due to the pregnancy

Or the criminalizing of harming the fetus in failed suicide attempts

All of this legislation around women and their uteruses is NOT in our best interests
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