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S/O Thanksgiving... Pro-Life, Pro-Choice in America
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:38 pm
Another very important and serious scenario;. Selective reduction of multiples.

This is a scenario more common than we think, and necessary for the safety of mothers and babies. Ohio's proposed laws would likely result in a lot of danger to women carrying multiples (and the accompanying fetuses)
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:46 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Not true. I said there is room to compromise on women with documented history of severe mental illness.

Is there any room for compromise for you Pro-Abortioners?

Or do you insist that abortion must be "on demand" even when there is absolutely no medical reason?


I am pretty surprised at this move towards compromise so I will respond that yes I am usually pretty uncomfortable with the shout your abortion people.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:50 pm
roses wrote:
Another very important and serious scenario;. Selective reduction of multiples.

This is a scenario more common than we think, and necessary for the safety of mothers and babies. Ohio's proposed laws would likely result in a lot of danger to women carrying multiples (and the accompanying fetuses)


Yes. This scenario is somewhat less likely than it used to be because regulated fertility clinics no longer inseminate when a woman has multiple mature follicles due to fertility drugs. Also these days the protocol of most fertility clinics is that when a woman is doing IVF, they only implant one or two embryos. But multiples still happen. I know several women who had to selectively reduce. I know one who got a psak from a gadol hador to selectively reduce.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:56 pm
marina wrote:
I am pretty surprised at this move towards compromise so I will respond that yes I am usually pretty uncomfortable with the shout your abortion people.


Thank you.

Do you believe abortion should be allowed for no medical reason, simply because the child is unwanted?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:29 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Thank you.

Do you believe abortion should be allowed for no medical reason, simply because the child is unwanted?


I do.
I don't think it is to anyone's benefit to carry and birth an unwanted child. There are so many scenarios in which abortion would be desired for non-medical reasons that I would very much support.

1. Stranger rape
2. Date rape
3.. Domestic violence situation
4. Incest
5. Child/ Teen pregnancy
6. Extreme poverty where current children are suffering, unstable living situation, etc.
7. General poverty where Mom isn't independent or stable because of it
8. Unstable Mom, poor impulse control, anger issues
9. Mom needs to be on meds incompatible with pregnancy
10. Chemical addiction issues; alcohol, drugs, substances
11. Behavioral addiction issues;. S-x, gambling, etc
12. Depression/anxiety in Mom, won't be a caring good mother
13. Family in crisis from other family members:. Ie. Severe Illness in another family member, psychiatric crises of family members, living in are of natural disasters such as Puerto Rico hurricane, Haiti earthquake, etc.
14. Low IQ Mom- with no family support to fill in with parenting
15. Mom with disability, unable to properly care for child, pregnancy will exacerbate disability
16. Parents have history of abuse or neglect of other children
17. Parents grew up being abused/neglected, don't feel emotionally able to care for child, need to do a lot of therapy first to overcome childhood trauma

I can think of many other scenarios. People's lives are complicated. It's not for us to judge.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:35 pm
roses wrote:
I do.
I don't think it is to anyone's benefit to carry and birth an unwanted child. There are so many scenarios in which abortion would be desired for non-medical reasons that I would very much support.

1. Stranger rape
2. Date rape
3.. Domestic violence situation
4. Incest
5. Child/ Teen pregnancy
6. Extreme poverty where current children are suffering, unstable living situation, etc.
7. General poverty where Mom isn't independent or stable because of it
8. Unstable Mom, poor impulse control, anger issues
9. Mom needs to be on meds incompatible with pregnancy
10. Chemical addiction issues; alcohol, drugs, substances
11. Behavioral addiction issues;. S-x, gambling, etc
12. Depression/anxiety in Mom, won't be a caring good mother
13. Family in crisis from other family members:. Ie. Severe Illness in another family member, psychiatric crises of family members, living in are of natural disasters such as Puerto Rico hurricane, Haiti earthquake, etc.
14. Low IQ Mom- with no family support to fill in with parenting
15. Mom with disability, unable to properly care for child, pregnancy will exacerbate disability
16. Parents have history of abuse or neglect of other children
17. Parents grew up being abused/neglected, don't feel emotionally able to care for child, need to do a lot of therapy first to overcome childhood trauma

I can think of many other scenarios. People's lives are complicated. It's not for us to judge.


I do Judge MURDER of an unborn baby for the reasons you listed. It's Shocking.
Some People make Democrat Party their Religion above the Torah.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:48 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I do Judge MURDER of an unborn baby for the reasons you listed. It's Shocking.
Some People make Democrat Party their Religion above the Torah.


If it's too hard to imagine yourself in the situation of one of those I described, that's on you. An early term abortion is most certainly not considered murder Al pi halacha, and would definitely be an option under at least some of the circumstances listed.

I'd like to challenge you to respond to a post substantively without resorting to attacks such as accusing me of making the Democratic Party my religion above Torah. First, my views have nothing to do with the Democratic party. They are my views. Second, they have nothing to do with my religious practice. Third, you just lobbed a personal attack at me, which is against the rules of this forum.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:04 pm
roses wrote:
If it's too hard to imagine yourself in the situation of one of those I described, that's on you. An early term abortion is most certainly not considered murder Al pi halacha, and would definitely be an option under at least some of the circumstances listed.

I'd like to challenge you to respond to a post substantively without resorting to attacks such as accusing me of making the Democratic Party my religion above Torah. First, my views have nothing to do with the Democratic party. They are my views. Second, they have nothing to do with my religious practice. Third, you just lobbed a personal attack at me, which is against the rules of this forum.


You said it much better than I could over hope to, so I’ll just say THIS.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:06 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I do Judge MURDER of an unborn baby for the reasons you listed. It's Shocking.
Some People make Democrat Party their Religion above the Torah.


Earlier, I had understood you to advocate for abortion in the case of rape or incest. Did I misunderstand?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:12 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
You said it much better than I could over hope to, so I’ll just say THIS.


Thank you for your feedback!
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:22 pm
Regarding rape allowed in cases of rape or incest:

1. The following six states have laws that prohibit abortion after 0-8 weeks even in case of rape or incest: Alabama (0 weeks), Kentucky (6 weeks), Louisiana (6), Mississippi (6), Missouri (8), Ohio (6). Two more (Georgia, Utah) prohibit abortion unless the rape or incest has been reported to the police.

2. If the fetus is considered a life at 6 weeks if it is the product of consensual relations, why is it not a life if it is the product of rape? Either it's a life or it isn't. Most "pro-life" people feel instinctively that rape should be allowed in case of rape or incest, which makes me believe that "pro-life" laws are mostly about punishing a girl/woman whom they feel is a slut.
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:26 pm
roses wrote:
I do.
I don't think it is to anyone's benefit to carry and birth an unwanted child. There are so many scenarios in which abortion would be desired for non-medical reasons that I would very much support.

1. Stranger rape
2. Date rape
3.. Domestic violence situation
4. Incest
5. Child/ Teen pregnancy
6. Extreme poverty where current children are suffering, unstable living situation, etc.
7. General poverty where Mom isn't independent or stable because of it
8. Unstable Mom, poor impulse control, anger issues
9. Mom needs to be on meds incompatible with pregnancy
10. Chemical addiction issues; alcohol, drugs, substances
11. Behavioral addiction issues;. S-x, gambling, etc
12. Depression/anxiety in Mom, won't be a caring good mother
13. Family in crisis from other family members:. Ie. Severe Illness in another family member, psychiatric crises of family members, living in are of natural disasters such as Puerto Rico hurricane, Haiti earthquake, etc.
14. Low IQ Mom- with no family support to fill in with parenting
15. Mom with disability, unable to properly care for child, pregnancy will exacerbate disability
16. Parents have history of abuse or neglect of other children
17. Parents grew up being abused/neglected, don't feel emotionally able to care for child, need to do a lot of therapy first to overcome childhood trauma

I can think of many other scenarios. People's lives are complicated. It's not for us to judge.


So even in your personal opinion it's not about halacha (abortion for most of the cases you cite would be considered murder).

So why say that you only support it because of your fear that your rights as a halachic observant individual will be denied?
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:28 pm
roses wrote:
If it's too hard to imagine yourself in the situation of one of those I described, that's on you. An early term abortion is most certainly not considered murder Al pi halacha, and would definitely be an option under at least some of the circumstances listed.

I'd like to challenge you to respond to a post substantively without resorting to attacks such as accusing me of making the Democratic Party my religion above Torah. First, my views have nothing to do with the Democratic party. They are my views. Second, they have nothing to do with my religious practice. Third, you just lobbed a personal attack at me, which is against the rules of this forum.


But calling people who are pro life "spouting Christian doctrine" isn't lobbing a personal attack?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:37 pm
cbsp wrote:
So even in your personal opinion it's not about halacha (abortion for most of the cases you cite would be considered murder).

So why say that you only support it because of your fear that your rights as a halachic observant individual will be denied?


I can support abortion for OTHERS in the instances I described. Which may or may not align with Orthodox Jewish practice.

I am concerned about legislation that would interfere with MY OWN religious practice, should I or my female family members ever need one. In which case I would consult with my physicians and a competent Rav, and hope that US law wouldn't interfere with the advice I am given

Capiche??
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:39 pm
cbsp wrote:
But calling people who are pro life "spouting Christian doctrine" isn't lobbing a personal attack?


If someone is spouting Christian doctrine, it is essential to call them out on it. We are not supposed to be influenced by Christian beliefs and it is important to be aware when these influences are creeping into the discussion
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:49 pm
roses wrote:
I can support abortion for OTHERS in the instances I described. Which may or may not align with Orthodox Jewish practice.

I am concerned about legislation that would interfere with MY OWN religious practice, should I or my female family members ever need one. In which case I would consult with my physicians and a competent Rav, and hope that US law wouldn't interfere with the advice I am given

Capiche??


Not to mention that in many of the cases you cite a Rav might give a heter depending on the details after careful consideration of all the factors. Rabbonim have the expertise and sensitivity to do, not something you can expect from the average internet commentator.
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:10 pm
roses wrote:
If someone is spouting Christian doctrine, it is essential to call them out on it. We are not supposed to be influenced by Christian beliefs and it is important to be aware when these influences are creeping into the discussion


Did you even look at the sources I posted???

Please back up your claim with a source!
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:14 pm
roses wrote:
I can support abortion for OTHERS in the instances I described. Which may or may not align with Orthodox Jewish practice.

I am concerned about legislation that would interfere with MY OWN religious practice, should I or my female family members ever need one. In which case I would consult with my physicians and a competent Rav, and hope that US law wouldn't interfere with the advice I am given

Capiche??


No, not capiche.

How can you support abortion for others when the Torah view is that its considered murder? I'm not talking about legislation, I'm talking about the "who am I to judge" attitude. If it's really about halacha for you then it should be about halachah all the way.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:26 pm
In what other area of American law do we expect it to impose Torah values on all of the American public?

(Edit: I am personally against the idea of allowing abortion because "my morality is mine, and other people have theirs, so it's wrong to judge that abortion is immoral because other people think there's nothing wrong with it!" I think American society as a whole should be able to treat abortion as a moral wrong. And in spite of that, I still think it should be legally available in the first trimester and in unusual cases in later trimesters.)
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:32 pm
cbsp wrote:
No, not capiche.

How can you support abortion for others when the Torah view is that its considered murder? I'm not talking about legislation, I'm talking about the "who am I to judge" attitude. If it's really about halacha for you then it should be about halachah all the way.


The Torah view is not that abortion is murder.
The Torah view is that for Jews, a competent Rav needs to evaluate the circumstances to determine if they rise to the level where abortion is permitted.

I, nor the Torah, requires that any of us impose our religious values on others.
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