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S/O Thanksgiving... Pro-Life, Pro-Choice in America
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:35 pm
wiki wrote:
In what other area of American law do we expect it to impose Torah values on all of the American public?


Dunno if you're asking me but I'll respond.

It's one thing to say "Oy, this is awful, millions of babies are being murdered according to the 7 mitzvos bnei noach. But I live in a secular country and I understand that - being in Golus - I can't expect the country to uphold Torah laws. A small comfort is that if I'm in a halachic quandary at least I can follow what my Rov rules"

vs.

"I totally support these anti Torah reasons why women in these positions should have the right to murder their unborn children because who am I to judge. Oh, and I will advocate legally for these rights because I am very worried about my halachic rights."
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:35 pm
roses wrote:
If it's too hard to imagine yourself in the situation of one of those I described, that's on you. An early term abortion is most certainly not considered murder Al pi halacha, and would definitely be an option under at least some of the circumstances listed.

I'd like to challenge you to respond to a post substantively without resorting to attacks such as accusing me of making the Democratic Party my religion above Torah. First, my views have nothing to do with the Democratic party. They are my views. Second, they have nothing to do with my religious practice. Third, you just lobbed a personal attack at me, which is against the rules of this forum.


After 40 days (about 6 weeks) it is murder and only allowed to save the mother from death or permanent injury.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:37 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
After 40 days (about 6 weeks) it is murder and only allowed to save the mother from death or permanent injury.


Since you are not a Rav, and you are woefully misinformed, I suggest that you educate yourself further before making these blatantly false statements
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:38 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Earlier, I had understood you to advocate for abortion in the case of rape or incest. Did I misunderstand?


I personally am opposed to abortion for rape or incest, but many in the Pro-Life Camp allow or agree to compromise.

I believe in case of rape/incest one should do morning after pill and or d & c right away. In this case, I believe up to 40 days - about 6 weeks.
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:38 pm
roses wrote:
Since you are not a Rav, and you are woefully misinformed, I suggest that you educate yourself further before making these blatantly false statements


Source please?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:40 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I personally am opposed to abortion for rape or incest, but many in the Pro-Life Camp allow or agree to compromise.

I believe in case of rape/incest one should do morning after pill and or d & c right away. In this case, I believe up to 40 days - about 6 weeks.


A.d & c IS an abortion. Did you not know that?
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:40 pm
roses wrote:
The Torah view is not that abortion is murder.
The Torah view is that for Jews, a competent Rav needs to evaluate the circumstances to determine if they rise to the level where abortion is permitted.

I, nor the Torah, requires that any of us impose our religious values on others.


Your list above was only for Jews?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:40 pm
cbsp wrote:
Source please?


My source for #Best Bubby not being a Rav?😂
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:42 pm
roses wrote:
A.d & c IS an abortion. Did you not know that?


Before 40 days it is not considered murder. Did you not know that?
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:46 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Before 40 days it is not considered murder. Did you not know that?


Let me get this clear.
You are advocating for free use of abortion services for the first six weeks of pregnancy?
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cbsp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:46 pm
roses wrote:
My source for #Best Bubby not being a Rav?😂


Cute. I forgot to bold. Very Happy

No, the source that she's wrong.

I posted sources with mainstream Orthodox Rabbanim weighing in on the topic. I haven't seen anyone posting anything remotely sourcelike that indicates that an Orthodox Jew should support pro choice legislation. Or that taking a pro life stance is Christian.


Last edited by cbsp on Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:47 pm
wiki wrote:
In what other area of American law do we expect it to impose Torah values on all of the American public?

(Edit: I am personally against the idea of allowing abortion because "my morality is mine, and other people have theirs, so it's wrong to judge that abortion is immoral because other people think there's nothing wrong with it!" I think American society as a whole should be able to treat abortion as a moral wrong. And in spite of that, I still think it should be legally available in the first trimester and in unusual cases in later trimesters.)


Do not Murder is a HUMAN value - not only a Jewish Value - and part of the Sheva Mitavos B'Nei Noach.

Your argument is the same one as Pro Slavery (which the Democrats were). If you are opposed to slavery, don't own slaves. Don't impose YOUR morality on me.

Do you agree with that argument? Why not?
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:48 pm
roses wrote:
Let me get this clear.
You are advocating for free use of abortion services for the first six weeks of pregnancy?


I personally think its immoral to do it for no good reason. But since it is not murder for six weeks, I support allowing it freely. After that only to save Mother from death or serious injury.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:50 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I personally think its immoral to do it for no good reason. But since it is not murder for six weeks, I support allowing it freely. After that only to save Mother from death or serious injury.


Wow. You are incredibly liberal, the Pro Life people would be appalled!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:00 pm
roses wrote:
Wow. You are incredibly liberal, the Pro Life people would be appalled!


No. I think this is mainstream Pro Life.
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pause




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:00 pm
Law and Order: Special Victims Unit recently had an episode on this topic. It was very moving (as is most of this show). It's called "The Burden of Our Choices" and it's worthwhile to watch.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:05 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
No. I think this is mainstream Pro Life.


Nah, I'm sorry. True pro lifers believe life begins as conception.

But I do want to welcome you, #Best Bubby, to the liberal side! So glad you could join us!
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SixOfWands




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:06 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
No. I think this is mainstream Pro Life.


Maybe used to be, but not any longer.

In any case, interesting article. https://www.jta.org/2019/05/22.....rtion
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:09 pm
A quick reminder: when the Gemara refers to a fetus as “maya b’alma” for its first 40 days, it is talking about 40 days post-conception. State and federal law refer to the age of a fetus in terms of the age of the egg. So

1. 40 days in the Gemara’s terminology is nearly 8 weeks as we normally date pregnancies

2. Since the “heartbeat” is detectable at around 5-6 weeks, much earlier than 8 weeks, this means that as far as Halacha is concerned, the “heartbeat” doesn’t have much to do with the status of the fetus.
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:31 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Do not Murder is a HUMAN value - not only a Jewish Value - and part of the Sheva Mitavos B'Nei Noach.

Your argument is the same one as Pro Slavery (which the Democrats were). If you are opposed to slavery, don't own slaves. Don't impose YOUR morality on me.

Do you agree with that argument? Why not?


You 100 percent misunderstood me. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I oppose the idea of allowing abortions based on some logic that morality is relative, therefore we have to be inclusive of everyone's morality. That is the logic that I am against. I agree with you that slavery is another case where moral decisions follow what is right, and not the popular vote. I think I wrote those very words on this thread in the past day.

Go ahead and read my post again. I hope it makes sense now.
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