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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Wrong Sperm - IVF - Implications
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 8:43 pm
I am watching a television show which centers around a fertility doctor who uses his own sperm to inseminate many of his patients. For purposes of the show, this was done many years ago so the children are all young adults - let's say between 28 and early thirties or so.

It has been discovered and so various of his children pop up in each episode.

This week's episode had a Frum woman who wanted to connect with her ancestors from her "father".

Obviously this was just a silly dramedy but I was wondering what the real life issues would have been. The woman's mother was Jewish but the whole family had assumed that her birth father was her mother's husband and not the Christian doctor.

Show is called Almost Family FWIW.
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:04 pm
I'm no Rabbi (obviously!), but my understanding is that she'd likely be considered a mamzer, since her mother had a child with a man other than her husband. She would only be allowed to marry another mamzer, or maybe a convert (?) as well.

The technology in the world of reproductive medicine is amazing, and has allowed many people to have healthy children who are biologically and genetically theirs, that otherwise wouldn't have been able to be born. But the stakes and potential risks are so tremendously high that many people insist on having hashgacha (supervision) throughout the process to ensure that no mistakes are made.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:07 pm
Obviously the television show wasn't delving into the intricacies but in the show she was married - was married at 19 in a somewhat arranged marriage - and had five children.

Neither she nor her husband nor the children were dismayed by the discovery but had the "father" plus three of her sisters for a Shabbos dinner.

Again the show existed in television land so I wasn't taking it seriously as I can't imagine anyone would have taken such a "surprise" without being the least bit upset Very Happy
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finprof




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:12 pm
Now I want to watch the show! Which episode?
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:16 pm
amother [ Sienna ] wrote:
I'm no Rabbi (obviously!), but my understanding is that she'd likely be considered a mamzer, since her mother had a child with a man other than her husband. She would only be allowed to marry another mamzer, or maybe a convert (?) as well.

The technology in the world of reproductive medicine is amazing, and has allowed many people to have healthy children who are biologically and genetically theirs, that otherwise wouldn't have been able to be born. But the stakes and potential risks are so tremendously high that many people insist on having hashgacha (supervision) throughout the process to ensure that no mistakes are made.


I think that Rav Moshe Feinstein paskened that it's ok, and she's not a mamzer.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:19 pm
amother [ Sienna ] wrote:
I'm no Rabbi (obviously!), but my understanding is that she'd likely be considered a mamzer, since her mother had a child with a man other than her husband. She would only be allowed to marry another mamzer, or maybe a convert (?) as well.


Depends on whom you ask. R' Moshe paskened that insemination is not considered relations and hence it is not an issue of giluy arayos for a married woman to be inseminated with sperm that is not her husband's. (He actually permitted artificial insemination with non-Jewish sperm l'chatchila, though he strongly recommended against it.)

Obviously, according to R' Moshe, the woman would not be a mamzer (though she would be a pagum, and assur to a kohein).
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honeymoon




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:24 pm
There was a story years ago of a women who conceived after many years through ivf. She gave birth to a black child. Turns out they inseminated the wrong sperm. Many rabbonim were on the case, and paskened that hashgacha throughout the process is of paramount importance to prevent such occurrences in the future.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:50 pm
amother [ Sienna ] wrote:
I'm no Rabbi (obviously!), but my understanding is that she'd likely be considered a mamzer, since her mother had a child with a man other than her husband. She would only be allowed to marry another mamzer, or maybe a convert (?) as well.

The technology in the world of reproductive medicine is amazing, and has allowed many people to have healthy children who are biologically and genetically theirs, that otherwise wouldn't have been able to be born. But the stakes and potential risks are so tremendously high that many people insist on having hashgacha (supervision) throughout the process to ensure that no mistakes are made.

Actually, even when it is a case where you would think for sure the child is a mamzer, rabbis do everything they can to try to be able to not have to call the child a mamzer. It is my understanding that very few people are actually called mamzer, with the actual halachic title and everything that goes along with it.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 9:55 pm
finprof wrote:
Now I want to watch the show! Which episode?


It aired last night. It was called Kosher
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amother
Linen


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:04 pm
honeymoon wrote:
There was a story years ago of a women who conceived after many years through ivf. She gave birth to a black child. Turns out they inseminated the wrong sperm. Many rabbonim were on the case, and paskened that hashgacha throughout the process is of paramount importance to prevent such occurrences in the future.


As far as I know, that was an unfounded rumor.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:08 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
As far as I know, that was an unfounded rumor.

It was a rumor that she had a black child, or that there had been a mistake?
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:26 pm
Not sure why this is such a theoretical discussion. There is currently a Dr on trial for this very reason. Also recently in the news, an Asian couple who gave birth to twin boys, neither of which was genetically related to parents or to each other. Basically 2 random eggs were fertilized and she had to give both babies away to DNA parents.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:30 pm
We always used hashgacha through ATime when doing IVF. I believe it's very common to use hashgacha in the frum world ,for precisely this reason.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:33 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
We always used hashgacha through ATime when doing IVF. I believe it's very common to use hashgacha in the frum world ,for precisely this reason.


It doesn't happen in the US even without hashgacha. I mean, we use the hashgacha from A TIME too, but we don't live in a third world country and the laws here are very strict.
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honeymoon




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:46 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
As far as I know, that was an unfounded rumor.


Possible. It's just a story I heard. I don't know any of the parties involved.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Thu, Nov 28 2019, 10:47 pm
trixx wrote:
Not sure why this is such a theoretical discussion. There is currently a Dr on trial for this very reason. Also recently in the news, an Asian couple who gave birth to twin boys, neither of which was genetically related to parents or to each other. Basically 2 random eggs were fertilized and she had to give both babies away to DNA parents.


Yes thank you. I was trying to post the article. It’s no far fetched at all.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Fri, Nov 29 2019, 1:23 am
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
It doesn't happen in the US even without hashgacha. I mean, we use the hashgacha from A TIME too, but we don't live in a third world country and the laws here are very strict.


Not so many years ago, in a small hick town in Ohio, a women who did IVF had a different couples embryo mistakenly transferred into her. She had to give them the child. She wrote a fascinating book about her story.
It does still happen, even in America (but way less likely at the big centers).
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happyone




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 29 2019, 1:28 am
it's an unfortunate happening , which is precisely the reason for strict hashgacha.
there have been movies, deliberate mistakes, errors etc over the years. in the frum communities it's rare and dealt with on an individual basis.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 29 2019, 1:54 am
There was a doctor who regularly used his own sperm when donated sperm was wanted. That is considered unethical.
The halachic ramifications though, presumably the sperm is from a non-Jewish man. Therefore mamzeirus does not apply.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Fri, Nov 29 2019, 2:13 am
Iymnok wrote:

The halachic ramifications though, presumably the sperm is from a non-Jewish man. Therefore mamzeirus does not apply.


So it seems to follow that an agunah could have relationship with a non-Jew and have Jewish children with him - who won't be mamzerim. Sad that this might be her "best" option...
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