Wrong Sperm - IVF - Implications

Iymnok

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 2:27 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

So it seems to follow that an agunah could have relationship with a non-Jew and have Jewish children with him - who won't be mamzerim. Sad that this might be her "best" option...

The Halacha is regarding children already conceived/born. It is still assur to have relations with a g*y.
Yes, obviously if one does her children are Jewish.

Rappel

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 3:14 am

There is a huge difference between having relations, and conceiving a child. Although I've never looked into it, I think it would be very easy to extrapolate IVF halachot from the example of a woman sleeping on sheets previously used by a man who was not her husband.

And take a chill pill, people; mamzeirut is not a joke, nor is it as simple as you think.

blessedflower

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 3:35 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

It doesn't happen in the US even without hashgacha. I mean, we use the hashgacha from A TIME too, but we don't live in a third world country and the laws here are very strict.

unfortunately mistakes do/can happen. It's human.
Last year all the woman that did ivf at a specific clinic (at specific time span) and conceived/gave birth had to undergo dna testing because a mistake was suspended. Just reading about it was horrible.

amother

Chartreuse

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 6:03 am

ectomorph wrote:

How do you do hashgacha? I'm picturing a mashgiach with a long white beard following a vial of semen around until implantation?

My mother volunteers for Puah. She goes early in the morning or very late at night or even for a shabbos weekend in order to be a mashgiacha for them. She witnesses the husband giving the sperm to the technician and sees it sealed or used immediately with the egg transfer which is also labelled and sealed or done immediately and she sees the woman who is present. I can't believe any mistake can be made this way. It is sealed so it can't be tampered with and she double checks the names on the samples with the couple. The lab is sterile so she dons sterile clothes and it is taken as a very serious halachically approved procedure. I believe most or all of the volunteers that have to do with the woman are only female for her personal privacy and comfort. People come from out of the area so she doesn't usually know them at all.

amother

Linen

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 6:38 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

It was a rumor that she had a black child, or that there had been a mistake?

That specific rumor, of a frum woman giving birth to a black Ivf child. Of course mistakes can happen. But I remember that rumor. I did Ivf at the time.

amother

Cerulean

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 7:05 am

ectomorph wrote:

How do you do hashgacha? I'm picturing a mashgiach with a long white beard following a vial of semen around until implantation?

It's a woman. She's there when the eggs are retrieved. She watches while they are placed together with the sperm and placed in sealed containers. On the day of transfer, she's there as the seal is broken and walks with the tech and embryo to the room where it's implanted into the woman.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 8:38 am

Sperm donor, even from a non jew, which is essentially what this is, op, is halachically allowed. I know a few people who have done this. Their children are NOT in any way namzerim.

amother

Lilac

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 8:50 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

I'm no Rabbi (obviously!), but my understanding is that she'd likely be considered a mamzer, since her mother had a child with a man other than her husband. She would only be allowed to marry another mamzer, or maybe a convert (?) as well.

Mamzerus is ONLY in this situation: when a married Jewish woman has intercourse with a Jewish man who is not her husband, and she has a child born from that intercourse.

There is no intercourse in this situation, and therefore, no mamzerus.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 9:18 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

Mi keamcha Ysrael that people help with hashgacha! It's a huge help and hope for people trying to be parents.

It’s wonderful that they help. Just wanted to let you know that they charge a lot of money for the service they do. The cost is very high, especially since they didn’t go through much schooling themselves like the doctors, nurses and other medical technicians whose services are being used. I was surprised when I found out how much they take and there’s no chance of being reimbursed for any of this. The RE doctors also help people trying to have children. Based on their years of study and training and their work, you’d probably calculate they’re being reimbursed at a lower rate.

amother

Linen

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 9:26 am

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

It’s wonderful that they help. Just wanted to let you know that they charge a lot of money for the service they do.

I was charged a lot for Hashgacha when I did IVF but I believe at this time they don’t charge (atime).

amother

Tan

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 9:50 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I am watching a television show which centers around a fertility doctor who uses his own sperm to inseminate many of his patients. For purposes of the show, this was done many years ago so the children are all young adults - let's say between 28 and early thirties or so.

It has been discovered and so various of his children pop up in each episode.

This week's episode had a Frum woman who wanted to connect with her ancestors from her "father".

Obviously this was just a silly dramedy but I was wondering what the real life issues would have been. The woman's mother was Jewish but the whole family had assumed that her birth father was her mother's husband and not the Christian doctor.

Show is called Almost Family FWIW.

"birth father"? Her father didn't give birth.

This was not an IVF situation.

anonymrs

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 10:07 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

It doesn't happen in the US even without hashgacha. I mean, we use the hashgacha from A TIME too, but we don't live in a third world country and the laws here are very strict.

I'm pretty sure it happened in California not too long ago, probably within the last 2 years. Mistakes happen everywhere.

amother

Beige

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 10:16 am

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

It doesn't happen in the US even without hashgacha. I mean, we use the hashgacha from A TIME too, but we don't live in a third world country and the laws here are very strict.

That's pretty naive thinking. Laws don't prevent errors, and this is the kind of error that is significant.

amother

Tan

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 10:24 am

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

That's pretty naive thinking. Laws don't prevent errors, and this is the kind of error that is significant.

Regulations that require specified controls prevent errors - not eliminate - but prevent.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 10:29 am

Iymnok wrote:

There was a doctor who regularly used his own sperm when donated sperm was wanted. That is considered unethical.
The halachic ramifications though, presumably the sperm is from a non-Jewish man. Therefore mamzeirus does not apply.

The show is based on that incident. It happened a long time ago, nowadays there is a lot more regulation.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 10:32 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Not only that but she watches the transfer as the embryo is transferred into the woman. It’s a little weird but I’m glad we were that careful.

malki2

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 10:37 am

I may be wrong, but I think that R Moshe Feinstein paskened that IVF by a donor does not make the child a mamzer, and that you need actual intercourse to create a mamzer. I think that this was a big machlokes between the Satmar Rov and Rav Moshe.

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 29 2019, 11:11 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I believe there also need to be witnesses and warnings before the infidelity occurred.