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Use of the religion line
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:35 am
I find it very interesting that on imamother every time someone disagrees with a poster, they use the religious line.

I was attacked (I dont mean insulted) on an intimacy thread for recommending oral relations. I was told it is against halacha, how can I reccomend on a Frum site.

I was told that abortions are pro halacha on a political thread and that's why we support them.

I dont read most threads, but I do see all the time someone says something and all the religious lines start coming.

I know we are all jewish here, but being that we are not rabbi's. Why do we jump on this rather than explaining our positon from a universal baseline. If you were having a discussion about any topic with you mail carrier, would you invoke religion?

I don't get how a s-xual suggestion requires that response. If someone is uncomfortable with oral, due to halachik concerns, they can speak to their rabbi (and a response like check with your rabbi is fine) but the avalanche of attacks, made me think they were insecure.

I am very right wing, but I try really hard not to invoke religion into my opinions even while raising my children. I use the line value system. My value system includes judisiam and other beliefs when judisiam has nothing to do with it. We all live with a set of values that we should be able to defend without using religion as part of the defense.

ETA please dont make this thread about a specific argument. This is in general.


Last edited by small bean on Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:41 am
what is the "line value system"?


From rules

Quote:
2. All posts must conform to the Torah. Imamother caters to Jewish Orthodox women, adheres to the strict guidelines of our Torah, and continues to be molded upon the feedback of orthodox women. Posts that contradict the teachings of our Torah, or even interpretations of the Torah that do not follow our strict laws, are forbidden. We require posts to be predicated upon the belief in the 13 Principles of Faith as outlined here.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:47 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
what is the "line value system"?


From rules

Quote:
2. All posts must conform to the Torah. Imamother caters to Jewish Orthodox women, adheres to the strict guidelines of our Torah, and continues to be molded upon the feedback of orthodox women. Posts that contradict the teachings of our Torah, or even interpretations of the Torah that do not follow our strict laws, are forbidden. We require posts to be predicated upon the belief in the 13 Principles of Faith as outlined here.


What you believe is your value system.

The line value system for example, it is not against halacha for a girl to where Healy's. It is against my value system. I think it looks trashy. I do not buy them for my kids because it is against my value system. I dont say anything about tzinus or religion.

We are not all going to agree on everything religiously as there are 70 ways to interpret the Torah. Arguing on a religious level even on a Frum site, is not a universal baseline.

For example on the oral relations, it is not against halacha according to all rabbis. Mentioning it is not against the rules of the forum.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:55 am
small bean wrote:
The line value system for example, it is not against halacha for a girl to where Healy's. It is against my value system. I think it looks trashy. I do not buy them for my kids because it is against my value system. I dont say anything about tzinus or religion.

We are not all going to agree on everything g religiously as there are 70 ways to interpret the Torah. Arguing on a religious level even on a Frum site, is not a universal baseline.

For exams on the oral relations, it is not against halacha according to all rabbis. Mentioning it is not against the rules of the forum.


obviously the person who objected to your post is under the impression that it does not conform to the Torah.

Regarding the abortion comment - nobody said that abortions are pro halacha (what does that even mean?). I can tell you that personally - whatever I would personally choose (or not choose for myself) I wouldn't want halachacialy acceptable choices to be limited by US law, and I struggle with why any other frum woman would feel differently.


And certainly there is a lot of disagreement that goes on here that doesn't "use the religious line".
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:00 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
obviously the person who objected to your post is under the impression that it does not conform to the Torah.

Regarding the abortion comment - nobody said that abortions are pro halacha (what does that even mean?). I can tell you that personally - whatever I would personally choose (or not choose for myself) I wouldn't want halachacialy acceptable choices to be limited by US law, and I struggle with why any other frum woman would feel differently.


And certainly there is a lot of disagreement that goes on here that doesn't "use the religious line".


I dont want to discuss specific issues because it is not the purpose of the thread. I want to understand why we throw the religion line instead of having a conversation with universal thought on any topic here.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:02 am
I think you are confusing beliefs and opinions.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:05 am
small bean wrote:
I dont want to discuss specific issues because it is not the purpose of the thread. I want to understand why we throw the religion line instead of having a conversation with universal thought on any topic here.


What is 'universal thought'?
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:06 am
Duplicate post.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:08 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
What is 'universal thought'?


Universal thought - I mean anything that no matter your religion you will agree on
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:13 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
I think you are confusing beliefs and opinions.


Your opinions are based in your values and beliefs.

An example of universal thought. If I'm discussing with my mail carrier about pro/cons of a vegetarian, I'm not going to start talking about karbanos as a reason for eating meat. Because it is not a universal thought if he's an atheist. So same here if I was having that discussion I wouldn't bring up karbanos, because it doesn't talk to everyone. It is not universal.

Fyi to everyone I'm on the fence on this and can argue both ways.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:18 am
small bean wrote:
Universal thought - I mean anything that no matter your religion you will agree on


I'm not really following you.

If there is a discussion over which bunk-beds are the best on the market - nobody is going to bring in the 'religious line'.

On the other hand if someone expresses an opinion like "I believe in every man for himself" - sure there is going to be someone who is going to give you a push by saying, in not so many words "you need to give your head a check because that is not what our religion teaches".... again it goes back to posts must conform to Torah... and further - we care about each other.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:20 am
small bean wrote:
Universal thought - I mean anything that no matter your religion you will agree on

Well, this is a Jewish religious women's site, so many of the topics and posts revolve around Judaism.

I think if you want to discuss a topic independent of halacha, you need to make that explicit at the start of the thread. Otherwise, it is reasonable that posters will mix in halacha.

Also, it is possible that many posters may not be able to separate halacha from universalism. It can be difficult to step out of the framework of Torah for the sake of a discussion if you spend most of your life immersed in that framework.


Last edited by DrMom on Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:23 am
small bean wrote:
Your opinions are based in your values and beliefs.

An example of universal thought. If I'm discussing with my mail carrier about pro/cons of a vegetarian, I'm not going to start talking about karbanos as a reason for eating meat. Because it is not a universal thought if he's an atheist. So same here if I was having that discussion I wouldn't bring up karbanos, because it doesn't talk to everyone. It is not universal.

Fyi to everyone I'm on the fence on this and can argue both ways.


This is a frum site... assume that people's values and beliefs are Jewish.

I can have an opinion on which appliance works best - and there is no value or belief associated with that opinion.

(and there is no such thing as universal thought).
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:33 am
DrMom wrote:
Well, this is a Jewish religious women's site, so many of the topics and posts revolve around Judaism.

I think if you want to discuss a topic independent of halacha, you need to make that explicit at the start of the thread. Otherwise, it is reasonable that posters will mix in halacha.

Also, it is possible that many posters may not be able to separate halacha from universalism. It can be difficult to step out of the framework of Torah for the sake of a discussion if you spend most of your life immersed in that framework.


I hear you. I think though that disqualifying a comment based on a religion on any topic is not a way to make a point as we dont all agree on the same standards.

The thread about not eating other people's food for kashrus purposes. There were comments that were assuming everyone holds to the same standards. It was an opinion thread where people started to back up their posts when questioned, with a language that was not universal. A better way to argue, I think would have been, something along the lines of, I dont eat x because x. Instead it was like, you dont realize how eating x is such a big averia and if you did, you wouldn't eat from these people..

While it is invoking religion, it is not done on a higher moral ground. That's really my point, anytime someone is offended or can not back themselves up to something a poster writes. They start with religion and some level of superiority.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:45 am
small bean wrote:
I hear you. I think though that disqualifying a comment based on a religion on any topic is not a way to make a point as we dont all agree on the same standards.

The thread about not eating other people's food for kashrus purposes. There were comments that were assuming everyone holds to the same standards. It was an opinion thread where people started to back up their posts when questioned, with a language that was not universal. A better way to argue, I think would have been, something along the lines of, I dont eat x because x. Instead it was like, you dont realize how eating x is such a big averia and if you did, you wouldn't eat from these people..

While it is invoking religion, it is not done on a higher moral ground. That's really my point, anytime someone is offended or can not back themselves up to something a poster writes. They start with religion and some level of superiority.


anytime? Its not universal.

There are all sorts of women here, and different ways to defend a position. Not everyone is you - and will present an argument like you would. There is a lot that goes into this - one factor being education.
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small bean




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:48 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
anytime? Its not universal.

There are all sorts of women here, and different ways to defend a position. Not everyone is you - and will present an argument like you would. There is a lot that goes into this - one factor being education.


You're right I'm generalizing.

I'm trying to make a point. You are helping me understand why it is done.

Why are you amother?
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amother




Jetblack


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:50 am
Some women here have really leaned that there's only one way to do things. They're not trying to be mean; they genuinely don't know that there is a broad variety of halachic opinions on a certain issue. One of the best consequences of this site is the exposure to different points of view within the world of halacha.
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amother




Green


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:52 am
I think that some posters don't always know what is halacha and what is chumra. I have also received responses to things that have the tone of "how could you say that/believe that" when I am 100% frum and I follow halacha.
In my life experiences I have seen the same thing, it's not exclusive to imamother. People who won't eat certain hechsherim implying on Facebook that a restaurant is not kosher. YOU may choose not to eat there but it certainly doesn't make me non-frum if I eat there.
Specifically with intimacy and niddah, on this site, people have learned things as halacha and they just cannot fathom how frum women don't all ascribe to things.
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:53 am
small bean wrote:
You're right I'm generalizing.

I'm trying to make a point. You are helping me understand why it is done.

Why are you amother?


Bad Habit.

You are "very right wing" - I would think that means that for every significant philosophical position you take - you check it against if not 1 then 70 Torah views (and if it doesn't fit - its rejected).
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Ravenclaw




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:39 am
I agree with amother Green. I think most people do it because they don't know actual halacha.

As for more abstract/political/philosophical posts, it is annoying, because there are so many ways to interpret the Torah. I can just as easily say the Torah advocates taking a stand against immorality, as I can say that the Torah requires us to be dan lkaf zchus, love every person and not embarrass them. I do agree with OP that when discussing things in a secular setting you should use universal arguments, however on a frum website we can and should use Torahdige ones. The problems start when instead of saying "in the Torah it says x which is why I believe in z" people say "whoever doesn't believe in z isn't properly frum".
Just recently a poster (can't remember where) said you can't be frum and liberal. I hear it alot irl as well, and it drives me insane.
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