Use of the religion line

Ravenclaw

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:39 am

I agree with amother Green. I think most people do it because they don't know actual halacha.

As for more abstract/political/philosophical posts, it is annoying, because there are so many ways to interpret the Torah. I can just as easily say the Torah advocates taking a stand against immorality, as I can say that the Torah requires us to be dan lkaf zchus, love every person and not embarrass them. I do agree with OP that when discussing things in a secular setting you should use universal arguments, however on a frum website we can and should use Torahdige ones. The problems start when instead of saying "in the Torah it says x which is why I believe in z" people say "whoever doesn't believe in z isn't properly frum".
Just recently a poster (can't remember where) said you can't be frum and liberal. I hear it alot irl as well, and it drives me insane.

southernbubby

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:16 am

small bean wrote:

You're right I'm generalizing.

I'm trying to make a point. You are helping me understand why it is done.

Why are you amother?

Many times people on here post anonymously because they are cowards. I am also generalizing because sometimes they are merely protecting their privacy.
Because there are a variety of opinions about what happens in the bedroom, it's best to include a disclaimer about asking their own Rav. We don't know how knowledgeable people are on here because not everyone grew up frum and even among those who did, some were probably taught something different.
I personally blocked the intimacy forum because #1 some of the content I find personally objectionable and #2 the kids sometimes use my phone. I realize that imamother doesn't claim to be a family website.
I personally wouldn't post anything that I wouldn't want my daughters and DILs to read because sometimes they do log on.
Remember that anything you post online is there forever.

amother

Coffee

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:56 am

There are posters that want to push the boundaries of halacha passed the point of comfort for others. They feel because their Rabbi says it's ok, that it's ok for all.

Their Rabbi may say it is ok to not cover their hair. That's alien to many posters here. That's- where the religion line comes in.

I remember being shocked about the public dancing thread and the posting of it on the internet. That's alien, again.

I am not saying that it is wrong. It is something that I had to reconcile with my belief system.

amother

Brown

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:13 am

small bean wrote:

I find it very interesting that on imamother every time someone disagrees with a poster, they use the religious line.

I was attacked (I dont mean insulted) on an intimacy thread for recommending oral relations. I was told it is against halacha, how can I reccomend on a Frum site.

I was told that abortions are pro halacha on a political thread and that's why we support them.

I dont read most threads, but I do see all the time someone says something and all the religious lines start coming.

I know we are all jewish here, but being that we are not rabbi's. Why do we jump on this rather than explaining our positon from a universal baseline. If you were having a discussion about any topic with you mail carrier, would you invoke religion?

I don't get how a s-xual suggestion requires that response. If someone is uncomfortable with oral, due to halachik concerns, they can speak to their rabbi (and a response like check with your rabbi is fine) but the avalanche of attacks, made me think they were insecure.

I am very right wing, but I try really hard not to invoke religion into my opinions even while raising my children. I use the line value system. My value system includes judisiam and other beliefs when judisiam has nothing to do with it. We all live with a set of values that we should be able to defend without using religion as part of the defense.

ETA please dont make this thread about a specific argument. This is in general.

The reason that religion is invoked in discussions about various topics is because our whole lives are seen through the prism of Yiddishkeit, as they should be. There is no universal belief system. It's one of the reasons that atheism, in particular, is so problematic; if you don't believe in G-d, why is murder wrong? Why is anything right or wrong?

If you were having a discussion with someone who does not believe in Yiddishkeit, then obviously you would not invoke religion in the discussion. However, we are coming with the presumption that every poster here believes in Yiddishkeit (which seems to be a naive notion sometimes, honestly). Therefore, it makes sense that people object to points on religious grounds.

That being said, sometimes the religious high ground wears thin and reeks of arrogance. Yes, it does often come from ignorance of halacha, confusion of halacha, minhag, chumra, and mishegas, and outright belief in "my way or the highway."

southernbubby

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:16 am

Ruchel wrote:

Goes both ways. The posters who are told ok not cover get attacked

But again, a good disclaimer goes a long way. There is a difference between saying that women are not obligated to cover their hair and saying that some rabbonim allow uncovered hair because of how they interpret certain p'sukim in the Torah.
My personal belief is that lenient rulings help keep people in the fold and should not be viewed as the halacha for everyone.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:29 am

southernbubby wrote:

My personal belief is that lenient rulings help keep people in the fold and should not be viewed as the halacha for everyone.

You're starting from the position that a leniency is always the second best option and is a concession to weakness. That's not necessarily the case. Sometimes a leniency is simply the more correct interpretation of the halacha.

Also - someone I know likes to say that for every chumra, there is an equal and opposite kula. For example, if you are machmir to keep two days of yom tov in Israel because you're not Israeli, you're being meikil on the issur of bal tosif. Sometimes it's better to be machmir in one direction, sometimes it's better to be meikil.

southernbubby

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:52 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

That's why my disclaimer is that it is a personal belief. I think that lenient rulings always existed since the Torah was given because not everyone can observe stringencies.

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:53 am

small bean wrote:

But how can halacha not be relevant to certain issues? Take abortion. Yes, it is a horrible thing, but yes it sometimes medically necessary. Yet there are religions that will say, no, the mother's life comes first even if the mother is endangered by continuing to carry the pregnancy. But we don't, so from a religious standpoint, we need to have abortion as a possibility. This isn't a setira to say that we're against abortion on demand.

Now I'm not saying that it's my way or the highway and anyone who disagrees with me is michutz lamachaneh. This is a very nuanced discussion. I'm just pointing out one angle, despite your asking us not to, because I can't see any other way to make my point clearly.

There are many situations where you can't have a discussion without bringing up halacha.

Now to go on the the rest of the thread. I'll probably find I'm not the first to say this Wink

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:56 am

small bean wrote:

Your opinions are based in your values and beliefs.

An example of universal thought. If I'm discussing with my mail carrier about pro/cons of a vegetarian, I'm not going to start talking about karbanos as a reason for eating meat. Because it is not a universal thought if he's an atheist. So same here if I was having that discussion I wouldn't bring up karbanos, because it doesn't talk to everyone. It is not universal.

Fyi to everyone I'm on the fence on this and can argue both ways.

So what about bringing up that we believe that we're not higher animals but people created in G-d's image? There's a great recent shiur on TorahAnytime, about 20 minutes long, by Rabbi Shraga Kallus, Lessons from a Safari, on this topic.

Now this explains why I don't have a moral issue with eating animals. I can then say that I avoid veal because it seems cruel to the animals, and I avoid red meat for health reasons, etc.

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:00 am

small bean wrote:

I think the idea of covering hair is a great example, where religion used to shut down a person.

If someone says something about covering or not covering their hair, some mother will jump in on either side of the issue and attack the mother. Instead of writing her point without putting down the poster who is presumably frum and holds differently

But is this relevant to your OP? This isn't a universal value but a religious interpretation.

SixOfWands

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:21 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I just want to quote and nod and say WHAT SHE SAID.

naturalmom5

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:55 am

small bean wrote:

What you believe is your value system.

The line value system for example, it is not against halacha for a girl to where Healy's. It is against my value system. I think it looks trashy. I do not buy them for my kids because it is against my value system. I dont say anything about tzinus or religion.

We are not all going to agree on everything religiously as there are 70 ways to interpret the Torah. Arguing on a religious level even on a Frum site, is not a universal baseline.

For example on the oral relations, it is not against halacha according to all rabbis. Mentioning it is not against the rules of the forum.

Lets understand this. Healys are trashy but oral relations aren't.

As for abortion, unlike Catholicism, Judiasm allows abortion under certain circumstances. Thus, if abortion was made ilegal across the board, Jewish women who need them and are halachacically permited to have them couldn't get them.

Lastly, before we begin to talk about interpreting the Torah, we need to seriously learn Torah. This is a forum for observant Jewish women. Yet there are hardly any threads discussing Tanach, the Parsha or works of mussar. Much less chas v' chalila, daf yomi and advanced Torah learning. Most of the threads on this forum could be discussed by women of any religion such as cooking, housework etc.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:27 am

PinkFridge wrote:

There is a group of frum people who are vegetarians and they say that the Torah is on their side of the argument. So if you are going to go with th me religous view you will have that whole group of people jumping on you. You can make the case, why eating meat is good for you.