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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:30 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
Lets understand this. Healys are trashy but oral relations aren't.

As for abortion, unlike Catholicism, Judiasm allows abortion under certain circumstances. Thus, if abortion was made ilegal across the board, Jewish women who need them and are halachacically permited to have them couldn't get them.

Lastly, before we begin to talk about interpreting the Torah, we need to seriously learn Torah. This is a forum for observant Jewish women. Yet there are hardly any threads discussing Tanach, the Parsha or works of mussar. Much less chas v' chalila, daf yomi and advanced Torah learning. Most of the threads on this forum could be discussed by women of any religion such as cooking, housework etc.


I think if the discussion is in regards to interpretation of tanach, we would be right to explain things by clarifying this is the way I interpret it not a a final, you can't argue with it.

In regards to oral for example, I have no problem with someone saying they understand halacha to be against this. But to practically call me going against halalach is wrong and was my point of this thread. When you want to use religion it can't be given over as fact because interpretation is different for everyone.
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amother




cornflower
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:35 am
small bean wrote:
What you believe is your value system.

The line value system for example, it is not against halacha for a girl to where Healy's. It is against my value system. I think it looks trashy. I do not buy them for my kids because it is against my value system. I dont say anything about tzinus or religion.

We are not all going to agree on everything religiously as there are 70 ways to interpret the Torah. Arguing on a religious level even on a Frum site, is not a universal baseline.

For example on the oral relations, it is not against halacha according to all rabbis. Mentioning it is not against the rules of the forum.


No one says anything about tznius or religion when it comes to Heelys because there's unlikely a halachic basis to not wearing them. It's not necessarily part of a value system, I would consider it more of a personal or perhaps communal preference.

However, since there are many opinions that consider oral s-x against halacha, it makes sense to alert amothers that they need to check where their Rabbi stands on this before taking advice from anonymous amothers on the internet to do it. It's not about my way or the highway, but about making people aware that there are different interpretations in halacha and therefore they need to look into it before accepting what people say here at face value.

I don't understand why anyone would think that halacha shouldn't be mentioned on a frum website. Our lives are governed by the Torah, and online isn't exempt from that.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 10:57 am
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
No, sometimes stringencies exist because not everyone can handle leniencies.


Possibly but we see in an upcoming parsha that Yaacov Aveinu used a leniency to marry sisters and that one passed away when he entered EY due to the fact that one of the leniencies had to do with being outside EY (according to some opinions).
I would think that the fact that the Beis haMikdash had an Esras Nashim is because of what you say, that people could not handle a leniency.
We have a pruzbul before the shmita year because people couldn't handle the stringency of being obligated to forgive debt.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:12 am
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
No one says anything about tznius or religion when it comes to Heelys because there's unlikely a halachic basis to not wearing them. It's not necessarily part of a value system, I would consider it more of a personal or perhaps communal preference.

However, since there are many opinions that consider oral s-x against halacha, it makes sense to alert amothers that they need to check where their Rabbi stands on this before taking advice from anonymous amothers on the internet to do it. It's not about my way or the highway, but about making people aware that there are different interpretations in halacha and therefore they need to look into it before accepting what people say here at face value.

I don't understand why anyone would think that halacha shouldn't be mentioned on a frum website. Our lives are governed by the Torah, and online isn't exempt from that.


You're missing my point.

I have no problem sitting a halachik opinion. I have a problem using it to shut someone else down. I have a problem with using it as a form of argument.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:20 am
small bean wrote:
You're missing my point.

I have no problem sitting a halachik opinion. I have a problem using it to shut someone else down. I have a problem with using it as a form of argument.


I think your issue is when someone is wrong.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:24 am
small bean wrote:
You're missing my point.

I have no problem sitting a halachik opinion. I have a problem using it to shut someone else down. I have a problem with using it as a form of argument.


If you tell someone to save money by buying cholav stam milk or a national brand of tuna, they will say that according to their Rav, that isn't an acceptable option. Maybe that is a better approach than saying that the halacha forbids something.
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amother




Babyblue
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:29 am
amother [ Brown ] wrote:
The reason that religion is invoked in discussions about various topics is because our whole lives are seen through the prism of Yiddishkeit, as they should be. There is no universal belief system. It's one of the reasons that atheism, in particular, is so problematic; if you don't believe in G-d, why is murder wrong? Why is anything right or wrong?

If you were having a discussion with someone who does not believe in Yiddishkeit, then obviously you would not invoke religion in the discussion. However, we are coming with the presumption that every poster here believes in Yiddishkeit (which seems to be a naive notion sometimes, honestly). Therefore, it makes sense that people object to points on religious grounds.

That being said, sometimes the religious high ground wears thin and reeks of arrogance. Yes, it does often come from ignorance of halacha, confusion of halacha, minhag, chumra, and mishegas, and outright belief in "my way or the highway."


When you say "why is murder wrong if you don't believe in god", you are actually making the go to athiest argument.
They say that religious people only know not to murder, steal, and rape because their religion tells them not to. They mock the fact that it isn't in the inherent nature of religious people to live moral lives on their own. They must be prompted, rewarded and threatened by the consequences of these immoral actions.
They say it's different with them. It is not in their nature not to do these immoral acts and don't need a law to tell them not to kill another person.
You indicated that the only reason you know not to kill someone is because the Torah told you not to. Otherwise you'd be ok with it.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:58 am
small bean wrote:
This is exactly my point. Why are you jumping on religion when there isn't a universal interpretation?


Sure. But when it comes to covering hair, this is a religious value. (Though there is a writer, I'll come up with the name of the book later, who explored dress, and religious dress and how dressing religiously impacts a person.)
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zaq




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:24 pm
I may be inviting heaps of rotten tomatoes here, but from what I see of the right wing religious educational system, people are not taught to think for themselves. Everything has to have a religious basis, right down to the way you tie your shoelaces, and that religious basis has to be either from a written source or from a well-known rabbi. The more well-known the better, unless he happens to be YOUR rabbi.

It follows, therefore that a person from such a background will always look for the approval of a religious authority for everything, even when the topic has no religious implications whatsoever. Then again, who would imagine that G-d cares one iota about how you don your shoes and tie your shoelaces ( personally I find it difficult to believe that He does, and I view Kabbalah with a very jaundiced eye) yet there is an exceptionally strong tradition governing even this mundane activity. Ritual is everything, logic is nothing.

And of course, having been taught since infancy that their way is the right way; that any deviation therefrom, be it ever so small and insignificant, sets one on a slippery slope to idolatry and immorality; and that they have an obligation to rebuke those whom they observe deviating from their perceived “right way,” people will naturally use the religious line in arguments. That is the only line they have been taught, and it is the only one that matters to them.
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 12:29 pm
Without reading through the thread...because our values are largely based on the Torah. We aren't using Torah to prove our point. Its the other way around. I can only speak for myself though I assume this is true for most others.
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Ruchel




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:06 pm
southernbubby wrote:
But again, a good disclaimer goes a long way. There is a difference between saying that women are not obligated to cover their hair and saying that some rabbonim allow uncovered hair because of how they interpret certain p'sukim in the Torah.
My personal belief is that lenient rulings help keep people in the fold and should not be viewed as the halacha for everyone.


I feel the same. Also about chumros.
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Ruchel




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:08 pm
Heels aren't trashy unless trashy
Oral relations, ask your hashkafah not us
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:39 pm
Ruchel wrote:
Heels aren't trashy unless trashy
Oral relations, ask your hashkafah not us


Healy’s, not heels. Healys are sneakers with wheels on them. They were once very popular here in the US but I haven’t seen a child with them in years.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:46 pm
southernbubby wrote:
If you tell someone to save money by buying cholav stam milk or a national brand of tuna, they will say that according to their Rav, that isn't an acceptable option. Maybe that is a better approach than saying that the halacha forbids something.


Exactly. If someone says they need affordable milk. And a poster suggests buying it in walmart. If another poster doesn't eat chalav stam, she can say PSA it is not Chalav yisroel. Instead she will start a whole thing saying you can't buy Walmart milk it is against halacha, which is very faulty.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:47 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Healy’s, not heels. Healys are sneakers with wheels on them. They were once very popular here in the US but I haven’t seen a child with them in years.


Today they have an individual set of wheels that you can attach to any shoe.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:49 pm
small bean wrote:
Exactly. If someone says they need affordable milk. And a poster suggests buying it in walmart. If another poster doesn't eat chalav stam, she can say PSA it is not Chalav yisroel. Instead she will start a whole thing saying you can't buy Walmart milk it is against halacha, which is very faulty.


Fine. But not everyone will do this. Some posters will - because that is what they know.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:51 pm
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
Fine. But not everyone will do this. Some posters will - because that is what they know.


What do they know?
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:55 pm
small bean wrote:
What do they know?


They know that drinking milk from Walmart is against Halacha.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 1:59 pm
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
They know that drinking milk from Walmart is against Halacha.


But it's not. They know they are makpid on chalav yisroel. Everyone in this site knows that there is chalav stam. Everyone on this site knows that we all hold different things.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:04 pm
small bean wrote:
But it's not. They know they are makpid on chalav yisroel. Everyone in this site knows that there is chalav stam. Everyone on this site knows that we all hold different things.


I would never assume what everyone knows. I assume when people post something framing it as fact - they are sincere in their post.
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