Use of the religion line

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southernbubby

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:10 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

I would never assume what everyone knows. I assume when people post something framing it as fact - they are sincere in their post.

But if you learn anything from this website, it's that very little in Torah is black and white.

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:13 pm

southernbubby wrote:

But if you learn anything from this website, it's that very little in Torah is black and white.

Right - and I assume the posters who post otherwise haven't learned that (yet).

amother

Puce

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:23 pm

DrMom wrote:

Well, this is a Jewish religious women's site, so many of the topics and posts revolve around Judaism.

I think if you want to discuss a topic independent of halacha, you need to make that explicit at the start of the thread. Otherwise, it is reasonable that posters will mix in halacha.

Also, it is possible that many posters may not be able to separate halacha from universalism. It can be difficult to step out of the framework of Torah for the sake of a discussion if you spend most of your life immersed in that framework.

It's funny how people care so much about Halacha when it comes to Bein Adom Lamakom. When it comes to Bein Adom Lachaveiro... that's a different story.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:25 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

Right - and I assume the posters who post otherwise haven't learned that (yet).

I guess this goes back to zaq's post

professor

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:37 pm

small bean wrote:

Universal thought - I mean anything that no matter your religion you will agree on

I didn't thoroughly read the thread but this post made me laugh. Universal thought? No such thing

amother

Gray

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:53 pm

small bean wrote:

I find it very interesting that on imamother every time someone disagrees with a poster, they use the religious line.

I was attacked (I dont mean insulted) on an intimacy thread for recommending oral relations. I was told it is against halacha, how can I reccomend on a Frum site.

I was told that abortions are pro halacha on a political thread and that's why we support them.

I dont read most threads, but I do see all the time someone says something and all the religious lines start coming.

I know we are all jewish here, but being that we are not rabbi's. Why do we jump on this rather than explaining our positon from a universal baseline. If you were having a discussion about any topic with you mail carrier, would you invoke religion?

I don't get how a s-xual suggestion requires that response. If someone is uncomfortable with oral, due to halachik concerns, they can speak to their rabbi (and a response like check with your rabbi is fine) but the avalanche of attacks, made me think they were insecure.

I am very right wing, but I try really hard not to invoke religion into my opinions even while raising my children. I use the line value system. My value system includes judisiam and other beliefs when judisiam has nothing to do with it. We all live with a set of values that we should be able to defend without using religion as part of the defense.

ETA please dont make this thread about a specific argument. This is in general.

There is the concept of lifnei iver and so if you see someone here say they’re engaging in something against halocho or you see someone here okaying for someone else something that certain rabbis don’t permit or that we know is against halocho—then the right thing is to speak up against it. I don’t like how a lot of people here answer shaylos as if they’re a rabbi or because a rabbi answered their shayla. Each shayla has to be asked individually to your own rabbi and no one can rely on what someone else said their rabbi told them, it doesn’t apply to anyone else because every case is different.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:54 pm

professor wrote:

I didn't thoroughly read the thread but this post made me laugh. Universal thought? No such thing

I mean like a universal baseline. For example it is immoral to steal. Everyone agrees that you can't steal. Religion is not a universal thing even on a religious site.

amother

Gray

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:54 pm

small bean wrote:

What you believe is your value system.

The line value system for example, it is not against halacha for a girl to where Healy's. It is against my value system. I think it looks trashy. I do not buy them for my kids because it is against my value system. I dont say anything about tzinus or religion.

We are not all going to agree on everything religiously as there are 70 ways to interpret the Torah. Arguing on a religious level even on a Frum site, is not a universal baseline.

For example on the oral relations, it is not against halacha according to all rabbis. Mentioning it is not against the rules of the forum.

But it says in shilchan aruch that it’s forbidden so it’s not something that people here should say is ok because even 8f some rabbis give a heteir not all of them do and it shouldn’t be written here that it’s ok and then people here will think they’re automatically allowed.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 2:56 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

How do you determine against halacha? Anything you dont do?

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:00 pm

small bean wrote:

I mean like a universal baseline. For example it is immoral to steal. Everyone agrees that you can't steal. Religion is not a universal thing even on a religious site.

no everybody does not agree that you can't steal.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:18 pm

small bean wrote:

I mean like a universal baseline. For example it is immoral to steal. Everyone agrees that you can't steal. Religion is not a universal thing even on a religious site.

Lol was listening to someone last night basically saying that nothing is for sure. Take killing. You can kill to defend yourself. Armies go out to war and kill.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:24 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

What are you talking about oral relations?

I asked my husband after I was attacked and he said there are different opinions in the shulchan aruch on this. And it is not clear cut at all.

I also never learned it was wrong. A lot of what is posted in the intimacy sections, I scratch my head because it is so foreign to everything I learned.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:25 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Lol was listening to someone last night basically saying that nothing is for sure. Take killing. You can kill to defend yourself. Armies go out to war and kill.

But I think we all agree on that. That is not a religious truth. It is universal.

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:30 pm

southernbubby wrote:

But if you learn anything from this website, it's that very little in Torah is black and white.

This has always bothered me. The Torah is our rule book for life. It has the guidelines we are commanded to follow. Yet.....nothing is clear. Everything is open to debate and interpretation. 70 faces of Torah. It's mutter it's assur. It's a machlokes. It depends in what community you live in. Seems strange that everything is so unclear which leads to confusion.

naturalmom5

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 3:48 pm

[quote="amother [ Seagreen ]"]I think your issue is when someone is wrong.[/quot
e]

...and my point is that everyone is talking about halacha this and halacha that. Ive been on this forum for a while and I dont think Ive ever seen a thread about learning halacha. No threads on the parsha, no threads on tanach. Come to think of it no threads on seforim of any kind. Isn't that sort of like a bunch of couch potatoes sittinging around, eating cookies and discussing exercise and physical fitness ?

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:30 pm

Philosophically it's difficult to logically substantiate a value system absent religion. Nihilistic thought by definition obviates objective morality. Universalism is effectively saying correlation equals causation.

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:33 pm

small bean wrote:

But I think we all agree on that. That is not a religious truth. It is universal.

Infanticide is a mitzvah when it comes to Amalek. Every fourth grader knows that. How would you explain it?

SixOfWands

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:11 pm

[quote="naturalmom5"]

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

I think your issue is when someone is wrong.[/quot
e]

...and my point is that everyone is talking about halacha this and halacha that. Ive been on this forum for a while and I dont think Ive ever seen a thread about learning halacha. No threads on the parsha, no threads on tanach. Come to think of it no threads on seforim of any kind. Isn't that sort of like a bunch of couch potatoes sittinging around, eating cookies and discussing exercise and physical fitness ?

So start one.

But I disagree with your assessment. I may be practical applications of Halacha, but it it’s still a halachic discussion.

amother

Brown

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:15 pm

small bean wrote:

That's the key phrase in there. That's actually the key phrase in a lot of threads on Imamother which reference halacha.

Unfortunately, many of us have not learned the sources inside, and we need to rely on what we hear from our husbands and kallah teachers.

Do you know for a fact that it's not clear-cut? I mean, the majority of right-wing rabbonim DO hold that or@l from man to woman is assur.

amother

Brown

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:18 pm

small bean wrote:

I mean like a universal baseline. For example it is immoral to steal. Everyone agrees that you can't steal. Religion is not a universal thing even on a religious site.

Absent religion, or at least belief in G-d's existence, there is no universal baseline.

There is a concept of "mitzvos sichli," meaning mitzvos that are logical and would've been obvious even if the Torah were never given. However, that still presupposes belief in G-d.

Read Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen's Permission to Believe.

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