Use of the religion line

SixOfWands

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:19 pm

small bean wrote:

I mean like a universal baseline. For example it is immoral to steal. Everyone agrees that you can't steal. Religion is not a universal thing even on a religious site.

Is it?

There’s a Facebook story about a woman whose bike was stolen. She saw it advertised on Craigslist, answered the ad, took it for a test ride, and never came back. Did she steal it?

What about Jean Valjean?

Working under the table or otherwise not reporting all income?

Someone mentioned infanticide. But what does that mean? Does that include a decision to offer only palliative care to a profoundly disabled child?

But there are still things that should be discussed in a religious context. Including each of the above. Or name calling and bullying.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:29 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

That's the key phrase in there. That's actually the key phrase in a lot of threads on Imamother which reference halacha.

Unfortunately, many of us have not learned the sources inside, and we need to rely on what we hear from our husbands and kallah teachers.

Do you know for a fact that it's not clear-cut? I mean, the majority of right-wing rabbonim DO hold that or@l from man to woman is assur.

Ok I'm one of those ladies who did not learn the sources inside. But as far as dh said, that statement is completely false, it is not assur. We're yeshivish.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:41 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

My husband is extremely well learned and he said if it was an irl discussion he would be happy to show all the sources and explain this. But being that its a bunch of anonymous sources he is not going to.

Again, I'm not getting into it on a detailed level, because it is not the point of the thread. Obviously if you dont want to engage n this behavior because you think this is wrong, don't. But dont pretend that you know all the sources and it is completely against halalscha.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:42 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

If I steal does that mean I think it is right or does that mean that I stole and I did something wrong?

I think bullying is a moral value outside of religion.

I think if your argument can't stand on it's own 2 feet outside of religion, it is not a good argument.

amother

Brown

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:53 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Ok I'm one of those ladies who did not learn the sources inside. But as far as dh said, that statement is completely false, it is not assur. We're yeshivish.

My Rav gave us a heter for it, so I'm not saying that it's completely assur. I'm just saying that MANY rabbonim DO hold it's assur, and many (if not most) women were taught that by their kallah teachers, who were told that by the rabbonim they are in contact with. It's not so astonishing that if someone categorically suggests or@l s-x from man to woman, other women on this site would quickly chime in and say that it's assur.

small bean

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:00 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

Again if someone wants to add a PSA this may not be inlign with your halachik viewpoint that's totally fine. But to start attacking the person who posted it that it against halacha is not okay, because that is not true for everyone.

amother

Brown

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:27 pm

small bean wrote:

Okay, I don't believe I read the thread you're referring to, so if you truly were attacked, that's not okay.

I'm just saying that it's understandable that women would think that it's a black-and-white issur when they've been taught that it's one of the only things that's totally out in the bedroom.

amother

Brown

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:30 pm

small bean wrote:

Your first comment about stealing - it could be either one. You'd be surprised at how many people I've come across who don't believe stealing is wrong - and unfortunately, many of those people are frum. They only believe it's wrong if you get caught.

I strongly disagree with that last statement. We are frum Yidden. Obviously Yiddishkeit has a strong play in our discussions with other frum women.

If Ben Shapiro would invoke exclusively religious arguments when debating with leftists or speaking on university campuses, he'd be ridiculous. But again, we're all frum here. Arguments made on this site are often going to have religious implications.

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:34 pm

small bean wrote:

Attacking isn't okay - about anything really - however what you are describing above isn't an attack.

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 01 2019, 11:57 pm

small bean wrote:

We actually dont kill anyone.

I honestly dont even know what your point is. There is no way I would advocate killing people.

It's pretty clear cut in halacha that it's a mitzvah. Are you more moral than Hashem, Who created you and everything you see and Who owns everything?
If I go into your house and break your chair, that's immoral. If I go into my house and break my own chair, there's nothing immoral about that. If you believe in a Creator who owns everything, then that owner gets to decide what is done with his or her possessions. If you do not believe in a diety, then there is no objective purpose to life, and it is therefore impossible to break anything or anyone, being as destruction is defined by rendering something unfit to fulfill its purpose.

Quote:

2. All posts must conform to the Torah. Imamother caters to Jewish Orthodox women, adheres to the strict guidelines of our Torah, and continues to be molded upon the feedback of orthodox women. Posts that contradict the teachings of our Torah, or even interpretations of the Torah that do not follow our strict laws, are forbidden. We require posts to be predicated upon the belief in the 13 Principles of Faith as outlined here.

I don't mean to be harsh or attacking, but religion isn't always politically correct.

small bean

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:21 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

I don't mean to be harsh or attacking, but religion isn't always politically correct.

Tell me one rabbi that will tell you it is okay to kill someone today being amelek or otherwise.

This is not something that we do.

I'm not more moral than hashem. I think you are being silly with this line. I don't think this is a reasonable discussion.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:35 am

small bean wrote:

The issue isn't that we don't kill Amalek today. The issue is that genocide is on the books. For whatever reason, Hashem gave us this mitzvah. In the same way that we are aware of korbanos even though they are not a part of our lives today we need to recognize that killing Amalek is the will of Hashem.

amother

Blush

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:47 am

small bean wrote:

אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ הוּא בּוֹרֵא וּמַנְהִיג לְכָל הַבְּרוּאִים. וְהוּא לְבַדּוֹ עָשָׂה וְעוֹשֶׂה וְיַעֲשֶׂה לְכָל הַמַּעֲשִׂים

ח - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. שֶׁכָּל הַתּוֹרָה הַמְּצוּיָה עַתָּה בְיָדֵינוּ הִיא הַנְּתוּנָה לְמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ עָלָיו הַשָּׁלוֹם: (תורה משמים)
ט - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. שֶׁזֹּאת הַתּוֹרָה לֹא תְהֵא מֻחְלֶפֶת וְלֹא תְהֵא תוֹרָה אַחֶרֶת מֵאֵת הַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ: (לא תהא מוחלפת

והיה בהניח ה אלקיך לך מכל איביך מסביב בארץ אשר ה אלקיך נתן לך נחלה לרשתה תמחה את זכר עמלק מתחת השמים לא תשכח

Just quoting site rulebook, which is the Torah and Maimonides 13 Principles of Faith.

(If you want to know practically why we don't kill Amalek today, that's a separate question. I believe the common reasons given are that we don't know who are Amalekites today, and that the commandment is given to the Sanhedrin to wage war, which only applies when there is a Jewish kingdom. However, to profess disbelief in the commandment to kill out Amalek on moral grounds, and saying "It's something we don't believe in and don't do", violates site rules.)

small bean

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 1:58 am

If you go back in history the world was full of war.

Today in 2018 we all believe you can not kill. It is one of the 10 commandments.

To say that killing is not universally wrong is inaccurate in 2019.

This whole discussion is exactly the point of this thread. To bring in amalek as a proof that we do believe in killing is silly because in 2019 we dont kill amalek.

Thank you for making my point for me clear.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 2:01 am

small bean wrote:

A mitzvah in the Torah is not silly. It may be hard to understand and hard to reconcile with our understanding of morality, but it isn't silly. Even in 2019, we acknowledge that it is a mitzvah.

small bean

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 2:06 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

A mitzvah in the Torah is not silly. It may be hard to understand and hard to reconcile with our understanding of morality, but it isn't silly. Even in 2019, we acknowledge that it is a mitzvah.

I'm not saying the mitzvah is silly. I'm saying our discussion is silly.

You know killing is wrong, so you bring a strawman to say that it is really not.

amother

Blush

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 2:12 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

When you say "why is murder wrong if you don't believe in god", you are actually making the go to athiest argument.
They say that religious people only know not to murder, steal, and rape because their religion tells them not to. They mock the fact that it isn't in the inherent nature of religious people to live moral lives on their own. They must be prompted, rewarded and threatened by the consequences of these immoral actions.
They say it's different with them. It is not in their nature not to do these immoral acts and don't need a law to tell them not to kill another person.
You indicated that the only reason you know not to kill someone is because the Torah told you not to. Otherwise you'd be ok with it.

Any logical person realizes that atheists are making the common mistake of pointing out empirically that atheists do not seem to be less "moral" (an arguably fake word) than religious believers, and therefore the atheist value system must promote morality. This is a classical example of correlation being confused and assumed to equal causation. Humanity hasn't come up with many existential answers besides religion, hedonism, and existential nihilism. Basically everything falls into those 3 categories. A religious person would say that atheists are moral because the God that created them (whose existence they deny) implanted them with instinctive tendencies to do what we consider to be good. However, an atheist that subscribes to one of the other viewpoints as to what they're doing in this universe (in short, either having a good time or nothing) has no real logical reason why killing someone is objectively negative. Again, pointing out empirically that it's not practiced is not a logical basis as to why it's not practiced.

These are philosophy ABCs. Existential questions have bothered humanity since time immemorial. As Voltaire is quoted saying; "Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer."

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 2:13 am

small bean wrote:

I'm not saying the mitzvah is silly. I'm saying our discussion is silly.

You know killing is wrong, so you bring a strawman to say that it is really not.

You may be confusing me with another poster.

In any case, killing is generally wrong, but not always. And the fact that there isn't an absolute, blanket prohibition can be proven by the fact that the Torah commands genocide. It's a technicality that we don't actually go out and kill Amalek today. Yet for whatever reason, Hashem included that mitzvah in the Torah. And so we are compelled to admit that the Torah mostly condemns killing and values human life, but not a hundred percent of the time.

amother

Blush

Mon, Dec 02 2019, 2:18 am

Whatever. This is an irrelevant philosophical discussion. It's nearly impossible to have a value system outside of religion and still believe 100% in Judaism (aside from the fact that morality is inextricably bound with purpose, which is in turn bound to religion), and if you do you're going to have some difficult things to reconcile, but anyone's personal beliefs are nobody else's business.

Cunnilingus (and possibly fellatio, although that's not as simple) are not straight out assur according to most opinions that I'm aware of. It may certainly be looked down upon as shameful and denigrated in halacha, but it's not outright forbidden. It is a classical area which one should discuss with their LOR. Nobody should be deciding any halacha from imamother... but it is a good resource to know what should be asked to a Rabbi.