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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 5:39 pm
I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room. The reason the tone has gotten so nasty in politics is because tone is set by the top. Hey, it works, right? That's how you "win."

If you're a Trump supporter, you're twisting yourself into pretzels either to explain why it's ok when he does it (but not for anyone else), or why we should overlook his mannerisms for the sake of all the wonderful things he does, or deflecting onto anyone and everyone else. I used to think we could all agree that such behavior is beyond the pale. I hope that by enforcing moderation, we can all relearn what used to be taken for granted.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:07 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room. The reason the tone has gotten so nasty in politics is because tone is set by the top. Hey, it works, right? That's how you "win."

If you're a Trump supporter, you're twisting yourself into pretzels either to explain why it's ok when he does it (but not for anyone else), or why we should overlook his mannerisms for the sake of all the wonderful things he does, or deflecting onto anyone and everyone else. I used to think we could all agree that such behavior is beyond the pale. I hope that by enforcing moderation, we can all relearn what used to be taken for granted.


Everything you accuse Trump of, the Democrats have done - far worse. But when that is brought up it is dismissed as "what-aboutism". So it is hypocritcal to criticize Trump when Democrats have done far, far worse.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:14 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Everything you accuse Trump of, the Democrats have done - far worse. But when that is brought up it is dismissed as "what-aboutism". So it is hypocritcal to criticize Trump when Democrats have done far, far worse.


Bush the Younger was known for his nicknames. And I don't think all the recipients appreciated the nicknames. But they were cutesy, not barbed.

I can't think of anyone else who was as blatant (because we know what people said when they thought no one was taping, or could get hold of the tapes) as the current POTUS.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:38 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Bush the Younger was known for his nicknames. And I don't think all the recipients appreciated the nicknames. But they were cutesy, not barbed.

I can't think of anyone else who was as blatant (because we know what people said when they thought no one was taping, or could get hold of the tapes) as the current POTUS.


Really? What about Bill Clinton who was credibly accused of Rape and S-xual Harassment? How about Hillary Clinton who attacked the women who accused her Predator Husband? Or that Hillary Clinton got a child-rapist off by attacking the 12 y.o. victim on the stand? What about Al Franken who was photographed groping sleeping (non-consenting) women? What about JFK was a notorious womanizer?

Remember, Trump said "If you are rich, they let you do it" which implies CONSENT. That part the Fake News deliberately omits.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:49 pm
jeanette wrote:
The reason the tone has gotten so nasty in politics is because tone is set by the top. Hey, it works, right? That's how you "win."

If you're a Trump supporter, you're twisting yourself into pretzels either to explain why it's ok when he does it (but not for anyone else), or why we should overlook his mannerisms for the sake of all the wonderful things he does, or deflecting onto anyone and everyone else.


#BestBubby wrote:
Really? What about Bill Clinton who was credibly accused of Rape and S-xual Harassment? How about Hillary Clinton who attacked the women who accused her Predator Husband? Or that Hillary Clinton got a child-rapist off by attacking the 12 y.o. victim on the stand? What about Al Franken who was photographed groping sleeping (non-consenting) women? What about JFK was a notorious womanizer?

Remember, Trump said "If you are rich, they let you do it" which implies CONSENT. That part the Fake News deliberately omits.


Don't see how your post answers Jeanette's assessment. (Other than the deflection she mentions). She was taking about the language and rhetoric used.

Incidentally, the being rich, they let you do it, is not an example of consent. It's example of unequal power dynamics.
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Laiya




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:51 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room. The reason the tone has gotten so nasty in politics is because tone is set by the top. Hey, it works, right? That's how you "win."

If you're a Trump supporter, you're twisting yourself into pretzels either to explain why it's ok when he does it (but not for anyone else), or why we should overlook his mannerisms for the sake of all the wonderful things he does, or deflecting onto anyone and everyone else. I used to think we could all agree that such behavior is beyond the pale. I hope that by enforcing moderation, we can all relearn what used to be taken for granted.


It's important to recognize how global put-downs--ie, put-downs of everyone who falls into a particular category, such as "Trump supporters"--don't advance a conversation and have a chilling effect on future posters.

Even so, I'm not sure if global put-downs should be moderated in the same way as personal attacks.
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Laiya




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 6:55 pm
Rubber Ducky wrote:
So now the thread is derailing. How about we get back on topic? Start a new thread for fireworks. Or does anyone think I should use my magic Mod powers to split off some of the posts from this page?


Then again, maybe the global put-downs should be moderated, as they seem to be what incite the fireworks....
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:01 pm
simcha2 wrote:
Don't see how your post answers Jeanette's assessment. (Other than the deflection she mentions). She was taking about the language and rhetoric used.

Incidentally, the being rich, they let you do it, is not an example of consent. It's example of unequal power dynamics.


Nope.

1. It is Legitimate to question Jeanette's assesment of how people can support Trump when Anti-Trumpers have no problem supporting Democrats who have done FAR WORSE than anything Trump is accused of.

2. The Being rich, they LET you do it IS an example of consent! That's why Fake News always OMITS that part of the audio-tape.
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simcha2




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:12 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Nope.

1. It is Legitimate to question Jeanette's assesment of how people can support Trump when Anti-Trumpers have no problem supporting Democrats who have done FAR WORSE than anything Trump is accused of.

2. The Being rich, they LET you do it IS an example of consent! That's why Fake News always OMITS that part of the audio-tape.


1. She didn't ask how people can support Trump. She said that his use of offensive rhetoric legitimates offensive rhetoric.

2. No. Really it isn't.
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4pom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:26 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room. The reason the tone has gotten so nasty in politics is because tone is set by the top. Hey, it works, right? That's how you "win."

If you're a Trump supporter, you're twisting yourself into pretzels either to explain why it's ok when he does it (but not for anyone else), or why we should overlook his mannerisms for the sake of all the wonderful things he does, or deflecting onto anyone and everyone else. I used to think we could all agree that such behavior is beyond the pale. I hope that by enforcing moderation, we can all relearn what used to be taken for granted.


Excuse my naivite ( my first politics thread) but do (frum) pro-Trumpers support more than his policies? He is not in any possible way a personal role model. And that's obvious. I see ignoring his boorish behavior but I don't see advocating for it. I see settling for, 'Well , his policies are good for the Jews and economy.... and the media is on a witch Hunt... ' which you can choose to agree or disagree with. As for saying if you support his policies you must support everything he stands for - I don't believe that has ever been true.
We have had various types of mushchasim as leaders.. . None of who have been moral to a Torah standard.
I think the difference between America and Europe/ other places, is that outside of America there's no expectations of political leaders being moral role-models. Not by Torah standards or Western society's. The liberal presentation in the USA is to present as to what modern society calls fair and just and politically correct. None of which are in line with Torah morality. The right in the USA has their interpretation of morals based in what they call Judeo-Christian values. Which I also don't believe is in line with true Torah values. But which the conservative people believe is more moral and see liberal ideas as a departure from basic morality. I personally don't see either side as truth. But putting aside my personal belief, - I am simply wondering about this expectation of a moral political leader and indignance at his immorality.
I see it as Lev melachim beyad Hashem. Gd has put these leaders in power and they are puppets in His hands
Of course I'mhappy when there is a somewhat decent leader but even society's standard of decency is never close to Torah values or to something I would consider a role model.
As someone wise said to me years ago. The only people who would want that sort of power to lead a country- would be someone with some sort of "disorder". Her comment was in response to my surprise that Churchill was known as manic-depressive....
Basically- I've never seen secular world leaders as someone for society to revere . And both on the left and right I'm astonished at the surprise.
I think in the USA there's this disneyfied/Hollywood presentation of American values in the political system. But it's actually a facade. I assumed the facade was clear. Opaque not transparent. Disney/Hollywood family values are not Torah morals. And they keep changing and American society cant keep up or unite in which of those Disney values are the true American values. Is it the Mom and Pop and 2 children and a dog all smiley and polite and kind and recycle.... Or is it the accepting / loving /everything goes all family styles LGBTQ/love conquers all....and gosh we have destroyed our planet and must do all we can to stop the climate change and protect our children's future....
The left call Trump disgusting for his behavior. A male chauvinist and worse. -Do people really excuse his behaviors or do they deny it's relevance to political policies. The right throwing back that the left have had immoral leaders is no answer. This conservative Judea Christian values of the American right is not Torah.
Why do you look to the political leaders for morality?
I'm not talking to the rest of the USA and to non frum people. As frum people, who see our leaders as part of hashgacha I have a questions as to your approach.
Basically I'm asking the frum leftists -Why are you so upset that we have a not nice guy as a political leader. You can argue his policies. You can teach your children, oh my he makes himself look real bad. Don't ever treat your wife / workers and children that way.
And the right Im asking the same- why can't you say straight out his behavior is unacceptable and he must be Gds puppet bc his policies are something I agree with. But say to your children the same as above. He is not a personal role model for us.

I'll get off my soap box now.
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roses




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:39 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Nope.

1. It is Legitimate to question Jeanette's assesment of how people can support Trump when Anti-Trumpers have no problem supporting Democrats who have done FAR WORSE than anything Trump is accused of.

2. The Being rich, they LET you do it IS an example of consent! That's why Fake News always OMITS that part of the audio-tape.


You really need to stop excusing and promoting s-xual assault. It's abhorrent.

If you know anything about s-xual violence, you know that part of the trauma is freezing into a traumatized state and being unable to fight/flee. This is the scenario Trump is describing. He is assaulting someone, and they are traumatized and in shock and don't fight back. None of this implies consent. His use of his status: ie. Fame and fortune- adds to the power differential, and adds to the shock and trauma factor. (Here is this famous person and he just grabbed my genitals! Help! What do I do! He is a powerful person and I'm so scared! He is a celebrity- who will believe me?!! )

It makes it even more disgusting that he knowingly uses his celebrity and fame status to s-xually assault women, knowing how the trauma is compounded because of it. It's the same for other people in positions of power, such as Rabbis, priests, doctors, teachers- the power overwhelms the victim, making it that much harder to fight back
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:53 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Really? What about Bill Clinton who was credibly accused of Rape and S-xual Harassment? How about Hillary Clinton who attacked the women who accused her Predator Husband? Or that Hillary Clinton got a child-rapist off by attacking the 12 y.o. victim on the stand? What about Al Franken who was photographed groping sleeping (non-consenting) women? What about JFK was a notorious womanizer?

Remember, Trump said "If you are rich, they let you do it" which implies CONSENT. That part the Fake News deliberately omits.


Franken's history. Otherwise he'd probably be the candidate. Seriously.
I'm not going to start up with the whataboutism. But as I said, was anyone else as blatant? Brag about conquests in their memoirs?

And I have to say, every time I see the bolded, I want to throw up. I understand that's consent, as much as the women JFK womenized with were. Does that make it at all appealing? That's what relationships are based on? Money? Talk about quid pro quos...

ETA: Just caught up. "Unequal power dynamics." I love that phrase. It's perfect.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Laiya




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:54 pm
4pom wrote:
Excuse my naivite ( my first politics thread) but do (frum) pro-Trumpers support more than his policies? He is not in any possible way a personal role model. And that's obvious. I see ignoring his boorish behavior but I don't see advocating for it. I see settling for, 'Well , his policies are good for the Jews and economy.... and the media is on a witch Hunt... ' which you can choose to agree or disagree with. As for saying if you support his policies you must support everything he stands for - I don't believe that has ever been true.
We have had various types of mushchasim as leaders.. . None of who have been moral to a Torah standard.
I think the difference between America and Europe/ other places, is that outside of America there's no expectations of political leaders being moral role-models. Not by Torah standards or Western society's. The liberal presentation in the USA is to present as to what modern society calls fair and just and politically correct. None of which are in line with Torah morality. The right in the USA has their interpretation of morals based in what they call Judeo-Christian values. Which I also don't believe is in line with true Torah values. But which the conservative people believe is more moral and see liberal ideas as a departure from basic morality. I personally don't see either side as truth. But putting aside my personal belief, - I am simply wondering about this expectation of a moral political leader and indignance at his immorality.
I see it as Lev melachim beyad Hashem. Gd has put these leaders in power and they are puppets in His hands
Of course I'mhappy when there is a somewhat decent leader but even society's standard of decency is never close to Torah values or to something I would consider a role model.
As someone wise said to me years ago. The only people who would want that sort of power to lead a country- would be someone with some sort of "disorder". Her comment was in response to my surprise that Churchill was known as manic-depressive....
Basically- I've never seen secular world leaders as someone for society to revere . And both on the left and right I'm astonished at the surprise.
I think in the USA there's this disneyfied/Hollywood presentation of American values in the political system. But it's actually a facade. I assumed the facade was clear. Opaque not transparent. Disney/Hollywood family values are not Torah morals. And they keep changing and American society cant keep up or unite in which of those Disney values are the true American values. Is it the Mom and Pop and 2 children and a dog all smiley and polite and kind and recycle.... Or is it the accepting / loving /everything goes all family styles LGBTQ/love conquers all....and gosh we have destroyed our planet and must do all we can to stop the climate change and protect our children's future....
The left call Trump disgusting for his behavior. A male chauvinist and worse. -Do people really excuse his behaviors or do they deny it's relevance to political policies. The right throwing back that the left have had immoral leaders is no answer. This conservative Judea Christian values of the American right is not Torah.
Why do you look to the political leaders for morality?
I'm not talking to the rest of the USA and to non frum people. As frum people, who see our leaders as part of hashgacha I have a questions as to your approach.
Basically I'm asking the frum leftists -Why are you so upset that we have a not nice guy as a political leader. You can argue his policies. You can teach your children, oh my he makes himself look real bad. Don't ever treat your wife / workers and children that way.
And the right Im asking the same- why can't you say straight out his behavior is unacceptable and he must be Gds puppet bc his policies are something I agree with. But say to your children the same as above. He is not a personal role model for us.

I'll get off my soap box now.


Exactly the problem. No one wants to actually discuss policies.
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Jeanette




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:56 pm
4pom wrote:
Excuse my naivite ( my first politics thread) but do (frum) pro-Trumpers support more than his policies? He is not in any possible way a personal role model. And that's obvious. I see ignoring his boorish behavior but I don't see advocating for it. I see settling for, 'Well , his policies are good for the Jews and economy.... and the media is on a witch Hunt... ' which you can choose to agree or disagree with. As for saying if you support his policies you must support everything he stands for - I don't believe that has ever been true.
We have had various types of mushchasim as leaders.. . None of who have been moral to a Torah standard.
I think the difference between America and Europe/ other places, is that outside of America there's no expectations of political leaders being moral role-models. Not by Torah standards or Western society's. The liberal presentation in the USA is to present as to what modern society calls fair and just and politically correct. None of which are in line with Torah morality. The right in the USA has their interpretation of morals based in what they call Judeo-Christian values. Which I also don't believe is in line with true Torah values. But which the conservative people believe is more moral and see liberal ideas as a departure from basic morality. I personally don't see either side as truth. But putting aside my personal belief, - I am simply wondering about this expectation of a moral political leader and indignance at his immorality.
I see it as Lev melachim beyad Hashem. Gd has put these leaders in power and they are puppets in His hands
Of course I'mhappy when there is a somewhat decent leader but even society's standard of decency is never close to Torah values or to something I would consider a role model.
As someone wise said to me years ago. The only people who would want that sort of power to lead a country- would be someone with some sort of "disorder". Her comment was in response to my surprise that Churchill was known as manic-depressive....
Basically- I've never seen secular world leaders as someone for society to revere . And both on the left and right I'm astonished at the surprise.
I think in the USA there's this disneyfied/Hollywood presentation of American values in the political system. But it's actually a facade. I assumed the facade was clear. Opaque not transparent. Disney/Hollywood family values are not Torah morals. And they keep changing and American society cant keep up or unite in which of those Disney values are the true American values. Is it the Mom and Pop and 2 children and a dog all smiley and polite and kind and recycle.... Or is it the accepting / loving /everything goes all family styles LGBTQ/love conquers all....and gosh we have destroyed our planet and must do all we can to stop the climate change and protect our children's future....
The left call Trump disgusting for his behavior. A male chauvinist and worse. -Do people really excuse his behaviors or do they deny it's relevance to political policies. The right throwing back that the left have had immoral leaders is no answer. This conservative Judea Christian values of the American right is not Torah.
Why do you look to the political leaders for morality?
I'm not talking to the rest of the USA and to non frum people. As frum people, who see our leaders as part of hashgacha I have a questions as to your approach.
Basically I'm asking the frum leftists -Why are you so upset that we have a not nice guy as a political leader. You can argue his policies. You can teach your children, oh my he makes himself look real bad. Don't ever treat your wife / workers and children that way.
And the right Im asking the same- why can't you say straight out his behavior is unacceptable and he must be Gds puppet bc his policies are something I agree with. But say to your children the same as above. He is not a personal role model for us.

I'll get off my soap box now.


I happen to agree with you about neither the left or the right representing Torah values.

I think Trump is a poretz geder in the sense that he violates norms that used to be considered inviolable. And through his behavior he moves the needle on what is considered normal and proper and respectable behavior. So if you support him, you may not be supporting the behavior per se but you are at the very least arguing that it shouldn't be disqualifying in a president. I can hear an argument that the president doesn't have to be a paragon but he doesn't even meet the minimal standards we'd expect from an average kindergartner.

I don't know if you work in a professional environment or not, but I keep thinking about the norms and ethics I'm supposed to follow in order to do my job, and how I would definitely lose my job if I acted the way he does, and my job certainly has nowhere near the weight or responsibility that the president of the United States does.

I was a conservative all my life. I never voted for Democrats until 2016. So it just doesn't hold water that I would excuse this behavior in Democrats but now suddenly I can't abide it because Trump is a Republican. I just assumed that everyone saw the same things in Trump that I saw, like his bankruptcies and his scams and dishonesty. And it's a huge relief to me to hear from people like Roses or Wiki or Simcha2 so I know I'm not the only crazy one. We can all be crazy together!
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 8:03 pm
What roses said.

Really, #bestbubby is proving exactly the point Jeannette and I were making about the necessity of making it clear that supporting Trump's ideas is fine around here, but not everything he says and does is a model of behavior or speech we should copy.

I'm surprised that it's come to the point that some here are defending Trump's access Hollywood comments, where he said he grabs women by the genitals and gets away with it because when you're a star, they let you do anything. (Of course liberals don't cut out that line when they discuss it! It says so much about why he does what he does!)
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:01 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room. The reason the tone has gotten so nasty in politics is because tone is set by the top. Hey, it works, right? That's how you "win."



So in your very first post in this new thread, you start by blaming Trump for the “nasty tone” in politics. How very predictable.

I’d disagree and say the reason politics has become so nasty is because dems, starting at the top with its leaders, and right down to their every last supporter, are so filled with hatred of Trump (hence the disgusting violence emanating from the left perpetrated over and over on innocent Trump supporters, merely for a “crime” such as daring to wear a MAGA hat or having dinner in a restaurant) that nothing is off limits. In response, conservatives, horrified by the targeting of an innocent president, since the day he took office, with witch hunt after witch hunt, have had to start fighting fire with fire....but nowhere on the level of the vitriol coming from the left.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:04 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Everything you accuse Trump of, the Democrats have done - far worse. But when that is brought up it is dismissed as "what-aboutism". So it is hypocritcal to criticize Trump when Democrats have done far, far worse.


Again, I’ll pose the question which I’ve asked of liberals before, and never received a response to. This will show how honest and rational they’re capable of being when it comes to this president: Is there anything, anything at all, this president has done since taking office, that you consider good?

(Non responses will say it all...ie. he’s the epitome of evil, incapable of doing anything right...which will show how rational the hatred is.)
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:04 pm
Cheiny, the moderators spun off the posts from the other thread when thy felt it was getting off topic. Jeannette did not start a new thread with this.
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Cheiny




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:06 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Bush the Younger was known for his nicknames. And I don't think all the recipients appreciated the nicknames. But they were cutesy, not barbed.

I can't think of anyone else who was as blatant (because we know what people said when they thought no one was taping, or could get hold of the tapes) as the current POTUS.


And that’s precisely because he’s not a typical politician, he says what he’s thinking and he’s honest. Many people much prefer that to the smooth talking, pc but unbelievably dishonest things we heard from his predecessor. (“You can keep your doctor.” “I’ll have more power after I win the next election...”)
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wiki




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 01 2019, 9:07 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Again, I’ll pose the question which I’ve asked of liberals before, and never received a response to. This will show how honest and rational they’re capable of being when it comes to this president: Is there anything, anything at all, this president has done since taking office, that you consider good?


Liberals and conservatives are both capable of honesty and rationality, I promise!

Trump demonstrated political bravery in moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem. His UN Ambassador also deserves credit for cutting support for UNRWA in Palestinian lands.

...And although it was kind of crazy, I thought that there was a lot of potential upside to the notion of buying Greenland!
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