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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:30 pm
roses wrote:
You really need to stop excusing and promoting s-xual assault. It's abhorrent


Tell it to Hilary.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:32 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I happen to agree with you about neither the left or the right representing Torah values.

I think Trump is a poretz geder in the sense that he violates norms that used to be considered inviolable. And through his behavior he moves the needle on what is considered normal and proper and respectable behavior. So if you support him, you may not be supporting the behavior per se but you are at the very least arguing that it shouldn't be disqualifying in a president. I can hear an argument that the president doesn't have to be a paragon but he doesn't even meet the minimal standards we'd expect from an average kindergartner.

I don't know if you work in a professional environment or not, but I keep thinking about the norms and ethics I'm supposed to follow in order to do my job, and how I would definitely lose my job if I acted the way he does, and my job certainly has nowhere near the weight or responsibility that the president of the United States does.

I was a conservative all my life. I never voted for Democrats until 2016. So it just doesn't hold water that I would excuse this behavior in Democrats but now suddenly I can't abide it because Trump is a Republican. I just assumed that everyone saw the same things in Trump that I saw, like his bankruptcies and his scams and dishonesty. And it's a huge relief to me to hear from people like Roses or Wiki or Simcha2 so I know I'm not the only crazy one. We can all be crazy together!


Yet you’d vote for this horror over Trump.

https://vosizneias.com/2019/12.....-yes/
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:35 pm
wiki wrote:
Liberals and conservatives are both capable of honesty and rationality, I promise!

Trump demonstrated political bravery in moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem. His UN Ambassador also deserves credit for cutting support for UNRWA in Palestinian lands.

...And although it was kind of crazy, I thought that there was a lot of potential upside to the notion of buying Greenland!


Nice. Glad to know you are honest.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:36 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Tell it to Hilary.


Let's assume that you're correct about Hilary (and I've said that I disagree with you, but that's not relevant here).

Why does it bother you, since you're fine with Donnie?
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 6:55 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Yet you’d vote for this horror over Trump.

https://vosizneias.com/2019/12.....-yes/


Quote:
What is one to think when Sanders fails to distance himself from his coterie of antisemites? That he’s unaware of their seething hatred? That he knowingly accepts it because he needs their support? Or worst of all possibilities, he actually believes in every word they’ve said? Does Sanders, who claims to be so aware of his Jewish history, also think that Israel is borne of Jewish supremacy?


And yet Donnie has repeatedly failed to distance himself from white supremacists. He initially refused to condemn David Duke, even when clearly told that he was associated with the KKK. (Donnie did later condemn Duke.) He said that there were “very fine people on both sides” of a racist rally. Jared Taylor, the publisher of the white-nationalist American Renaissance website and the author of White Identity: Racial Consciousness in the 21st Century, made robocalls on behalf of Trump, which were never denounced. They clearly see Donnie as an ally.

Is he?

Well, based on your reasoning, Donnie is unequivocally a white supremacist.

I think its a lot more nuanced than that. We can sometimes agree with people on some points, and not others.

I'm not a particular fan of Sanders, particularly his views of Israel, but I doubt he's an anti-semite.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:01 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I am happy Rubashkin's sentence was commuted. I don't think he's completely innocent but he served far more time than he should have for his crimes.

I don't think moving the embassy has much of an impact either way. I am very concerned that his foreign policy decisions in Syria and now Lebanon are destabilizing the region and leaving Israel less safe. We don't yet know Netanyahu's political future (or Trump's) so it may not be wise for Israel to tie itself too closely to any one administration, especially one as volatile as Trump. His habit of kicking the feet out from under the state department and career foreign service officials doesn't inspire much confidence that any gains for Israel under this administration (such as it were) will have any kiyum in a future administration.

His foreign policy overall hews far too closely to what will be advantageous for Putin rather the strategic interests of the United States. I don't know if that's due to Putin having actual leverage over him or just being skilled at managing and manipulating him. Whatever you think of Trump, I think Putin has been absolutely masterful in his ability to sow intrigue and orchestrate world events to his advantage. He has higher approval ratings among Republicans than Democrats do. E could challenge Trump for the Republican nomination and would probably win. Maybe instead of talking about whether there's any Trump policies I like we can talk about what I like about Putin, since I can hardly think of an area where Trump and Putin have significant differences. Whatever Trump does seems to work out oddly convenient for Putin.


Do you not realize how telling it is that your response to the question posed, namely, can you acknowledge anything good that he’s done, evolved into everything you think he does wrong?
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:04 pm
roses wrote:
There has been a tremendous amount of comedic material for the late night comedians due to the Trump presidency. I am really enjoying it from that end.


Once again, sad that you can’t acknowledge one good thing he’s done.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:06 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Do you not realize how telling it is that your response to the question posed, namely, can you acknowledge anything good that he’s done, evolved into everything you think he does wrong?


Are you the new moderator of this section, policing what people may and may not say about Donny?
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:10 pm
4pom wrote:
I hear you.
Trump had definitely been poretz geder on a public level with no hint of apology. I am just not surprised and it's partially bc the mask of decency never was more than a mask to me.
I have worked in a professional environment in the USA and that experience formed some of my views. There was a changing dynamic of what was acceptable and what wasn't. The facade of what I call Disney American values evolved, but all the time blatent affairs and gossip and prejudice was tolerated as long as it wasn't in the face.
So to me there was no real, better moral standard. It was a fake, nice looking standard. Basically, what existed in Hollywood until the metoo movement blew it's cover. The Bill Cosby story is the exact microcosm of how I see America. The very guy who looks like the family values guy of kindness and decency, is a rapist!!
It's all over. So telling me that I should be surprised with Trump's over the top disgustingness being accepted as norm - I don't know. To me acceptance of the behind the mask hypocrisy has always been an issue. I've seen covert sexism/racism everywhere. Amongst all classes.
I'm not even going to argue which is worse? the one who is obviously a male chauvanist or the one behind the mask of decency? Bc I honestly don't know. I will say that it's good not to be convinced that a mask of decency is reliable.

And I'll also add that in my professional work place. There was even the political bias to pro-Obama back when he was elected that shocked me. I expected as professionals to keep political views private. There was a celebration of Obamas election to the point that his inauguration was watched collectively. When I asked about it- whether this happens at all inaugurations, I was told no this was a special celebration for a major step forward in American history.... About a non-white being elected. The population we served were minorities. When I expressed my fears, as a Jew, of the unknown with his election, I was considered scandalous. And there other fellow frum Jews there who spoke of voting for Obama - so it was my personal thoughts I was expressing not representing religious Jews. And note - at that point I was not an American citizen able to vote - So I was clear I was not talking politics but theory.

Basically, I do hear the shock at how can we, as frum Jews, support Trump. And my question goes further than yours. To The rabbis and leaders that support Trump. Why don't they make it clear they do not support all he represents. In response to my kids coming back from school proTrump due to him being good for the Jews, I have told my kids clearly and concisely that his middos are terrible and he is not a role model for us as frum Jews. Why is this not being mentioned in school? I wouldn't have mentioned it. But in no way do I want my kids half ignorant and supporting someone blindly. Getting caught up in ideas they know nothing of. If you choose to teach my kids something about politics be wholesome. That's my rant against the schools. Or maybe my kids got it from friends at school..


How can frum Jews support Trump? I’d say the real question is, how can frum Jews support the dems with all the virulent anti Semites in the party?

As far as the rabbonim making clear that they don’t support all he represents, don’t you think it’s a given, and understood that he’s not Jewish and therefore will automatically not represent all the desired behaviors of a frum Jew?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:19 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Are you the new moderator of this section, policing what people may and may not say about Donny?


SixOfWands, yes, I too have been confused about why there seems to be this requirement to say something good about Trump. As I’ve said before, I have despised Trump for a very long time, long before he entered politics. His immorality and depravity were part of the reason, but another large part was his greed and, his multiple declarations of bankruptcy, which was his way of ensuring that he would stiff his creditors and his workers while he continued to live an opulent lifestyle.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:21 pm
Jeanette wrote:
The harm it does to the fabric of this country to have someone like Trump in charge is not worth the policy gains.


That’s your opinion, very short sighted, and thankfully not shared by most.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:24 pm
4pom wrote:
I'm talking about my preschool aged kids. Who I chose not to discuss politics with. - possibly my mistake.

I also don't know any Rabbis that think Trump is a role model. But there's no mention of it. And kids can be taught more than black and white but they aren't. I didn't want to talk to my younger kids about Trump
-clearly that was my mistake. I don't like the one side they heard from school and I am not I comfortable with seeing Trump invited to honarary orthodox affairs.

And regarding Hillary I'd have similar issues. I'm not one sided about this.


So clearly you’d need a frum Jew to be president in order to feel they were worthy of any respect or credit for success.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:25 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
SixOfWands, yes, I too have been confused about why there seems to be this requirement to say something good about Trump. As I’ve said before, I have despised Trump for a very long time, long before he entered politics. His immorality and depravity were part of the reason, but another large part was his greed and, his multiple declarations of bankruptcy, which was his way of ensuring that he would stiff his creditors and his workers while he continued to live an opulent lifestyle.


So this level of immorality and irresponsibility means that even when there is some policy that Trump announces that I support, I don’t trust Trump to follow through. An example that most women on this board are probably not that invested in is his support for the protesters in Hong Kong. I very much support the protesters, and I’m glad that Trump seems to be on that side. But I don’t trust him. I think Hong Kong will wind up being a bargaining chip in a trade deal with China. Trump has no sense of shame and constantly reneges on commitments.
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:29 pm
small bean wrote:
Seriously? I hope you dont let your kids listen to anything or read any books.,

Why can't you talk to your kids and explain to them what you disagree about.

Would you not let your kids watch a Democrat debate? Or would you not let them listen to an interview?


Just wondering how the people decrying their kids’ possible exposure to Trump’s “language” explained away Clinton’s Behavior in the Oval Office with Monica Lewinsky... but I’m sure they feel Trump’s language is way worse than what Clinton did.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:29 pm
Cheiny wrote:
How can frum Jews support Trump? I’d say the real question is, how can frum Jews support the dems with all the virulent anti Semites in the party?

As far as the rabbonim making clear that they don’t support all he represents, don’t you think it’s a given, and understood that he’s not Jewish and therefore will automatically not represent all the desired behaviors of a frum Jew?


How can frum Jews support Donnie with all of the white supremacists and neo-Nazis in the Republican party, who regularly tweet in support of him?
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:30 pm
small bean wrote:
I'm pretty conservative when it comes to language and trump does not say anything worse then anyone else in the news. So this is not a trump problem. How often did you listen to the news before trump? This is not a new problem.

This is a world morality problem, and honestly you can either decide you won't listen to any questionable ideas or language around your kids or you can allow your kids to hear it and explain to them that it is not nice to talk like that.


What else can they possibly criticize him on besides his supposed immorality and now his indecent language? They sure can’t criticize his wildly successful policies !
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Jeanette




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:30 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
SixOfWands, yes, I too have been confused about why there seems to be this requirement to say something good about Trump. As I’ve said before, I have despised Trump for a very long time, long before he entered politics. His immorality and depravity were part of the reason, but another large part was his greed and, his multiple declarations of bankruptcy, which was his way of ensuring that he would stiff his creditors and his workers while he continued to live an opulent lifestyle.


Since Trump is not G-d who makes the sun rise and the rain fall, I don't think we are obligated to give him shevach v'hodaah for any good thing that happens while he's in office. What we can do is evaluate his policies and decisions and weigh their effectiveness.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:32 pm
Cheiny wrote:
Just wondering how the people decrying their kids’ possible exposure to Trump’s “language” explained away Clinton’s Behavior in the Oval Office with Monica Lewinsky... but I’m sure they feel Trump’s language is way worse than what Clinton did.


You mean that getting a consensual bj -- granted with a disparity in power -- is worse than raping a minor?

Worse than grabbing women's crotches, then bragging about it, like Donny did?

How did you explain that to your kids?
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:32 pm
Jeanette wrote:
The thing about trump is, whichever direction you look there's a problem.

Is it just the way he talks about people?

It's the way he treats women.
It's the way he runs his businesses. (Multiple bankruptcies. Failure to pay workers. Inflating his worth for loan purposes, deflating it for tax purposes.)
It's his impulsive decision making
It's his incoherent policies.
It's his subservience to dictators and belligerance towards allies.
It's his pettiness and small mindedness.
It's his whininess and insecurity.

Every politician has flaws. Every politician has stories in their past they should be ashamed of. But I don't know anyone else with flaws in as many areas as Trump, and as devoid of redeeming values.


We’ve heard all this from you repeatedly, we get it. You were asked if you could come up with anything positive he might’ve accomplished...
and by the way, his “incoherent policies,” have managed to bring us a record breaking economy, lowest unemployment, tax cuts, jobs, best relations with Israel ever.... Amazing what incoherence can accomplish!
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Cheiny




 
 
 
 

Post  Wed, Dec 04 2019, 7:34 pm
Fox wrote:
What leads you to believe that I would be surprised?

The fact that I feel you are grossly dumbing down the complexities of the problem? Or perhaps because you see me as a poster who is not well-read regarding the matters on which I post?

Whatever the reasoning, claiming that I would be surprised appears to me to be a passive-aggressive attempt to make me seem naive and ill-informed.

Now, perhaps I am naive and/or ill-informed. That's certainly possible. But you need to actually persuade -- not just make unsubstantiated claims that you know better.


You could’ve just used a one word response: projection.
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